27 comments

1. 

   Ravager

   May 26, 2023

   ugh.

   1. 

      RandomU

      May 27, 2023

      I was scrolling down to comment "ugh" and here you are. Well met, Brother.

2. 

   Sara

   May 26, 2023

   When I saw this news earlier today it snuffed out any interest I had left in the Dawn of DC Red Hood status quo.

   I have been waiting for months for something good to happen with Jason. Being caught in the middle of Bruce's latest stupid tiff with Selina is not it. It's just once again defining Jason by Batman and Batman's relationships, not Jason's own. Zdarsky, the spineless yes-man of a wayward editorial team, has already written one sht1tty Red Hood story where he proved he didn't understand Jason or Jason's relationship with Bruce, a relationship that every single Red Hood fan is tired of hearing about.

   I don't like Bat/Cat. I'll like it less when Jason's been pulled into it. I wouldn't read a Bat/Cat event even if it had a good writer attached to it, which this does not, and even if it had a strikingly original premise, which this does not.

   I'm sorry to be all kinds of negative every week, but I have been waiting and waiting for something to explain to me why I'm waiting. THIS announcement does more to explain why I stopped reading.

3. 

   Ravager

   May 26, 2023

   While the trilogy format is not flawless, I think what Batman fans really need right now is a trilogy of Graphic Novel Black Label Batman books. Ideally, the first one covers maybe his first real clash with a supervillain at the start of his career, his second is in the middle of his career, and the last covers his last adventure before he retires (whether he is forced to retire via injury, or does so willingly, or dies is up to the writer).

   Comics lack consequences. The only way for consequences to occur is in self-contained works. Stories tend to be better when they do not go on indefinitely. In this format, if the trilogy does well, you can always make some spin-off books set at whichever point in Batman's career (as long as its not set after the 3rd book, thus undermining the ending) if people really want to see him fight a villain that did not get attention in the main series.

   Maybe he has like 1-2 Robins or just Dick and Barbara as his sidekicks at some point, but the main idea is that Bruce may be able to have successors, but his career as Batman is limited. Fighting Scarecrow would not be "Oh is it Monday again?" but rather a serious event that endangers the city and lasts the entirety of the book, kind of like a movie.

   At this point, I am much more interested in self-contained Batman stories that have somewhat unique takes on his career then I am runs which 1.) Do not change the status quo in any meaningful way 2.) Are almost completely undone by the time a new writer comes in 3.) Focus on characters that have been used to death, Harley, Joker, Catwoman, 4.) Vastly misunderstand the balance between Batman and Bruce 5.) Give attention to villains that are derivative of better rouges etc.

   I know Editorial wants the readers to get excited by new events, but Catwoman becoming a crime boss is eye-roll material. This won't stick, it's not going to be the character's legacy, what's the point? You'd need to have room temperature iq to think that this is actually a big shake-up in Batman's world. Nothing very exciting happens in mainline comics anymore. When big status quo shake-ups do happen, they are heavy-handed and disrespectful (ex. death of Alfred & Jim Gordon)

   1. 

      Ravager

      May 26, 2023

      I wasn't aware that Jason had involvement with Scarecrow and Two-face, are there any more details you can provide?

      If nothing else, now I'm thinking about how I'd write this hypothetical trilogy, though I am inclined to leave out the Joker entirely.

      1. 

         Ravager

         May 27, 2023

         I had no idea, those sound like two great arcs that flesh out both the villains and Jason. It seems like a retcon that Bruce rushed to get a new Robin, Jason was impulsive, out of his depth, and got killed very early on in the job, but the Two-face and Scarecrow connections kind of undermine that "new" narrative.

      2. 

         Sara

         May 27, 2023

         This is all rage-inducingly true.

         I would kill to see the Two-Face and Scarecrow stories modernized. Lobdell never came up with anything worthy to take their place. And it should never have been called for. There were good Jason Todd stories, but DC retconned them. Jason's existence as Robin has almost been condensed into a single, bad Joker story that makes Jason look like a stupid hothead. It's like his canon was edited and abridged by a hateful redditor.

   2. 

      Sara

      May 27, 2023

      Tom King already did a semi-canonical rewrite of Bruce's history to make Catwoman the axis on which his world turns. Now he's rewriting a Joker story to be Bruce's definitive first encounter with a supervillain. (Whither Hugo Strange?) It's like the evil inversion of what you guys are talking about.

      I thought an alternate continuity with a different Batman and different status quo was what they were planning for Jace Fox, but that petered out into a big nothing.

4. 

   Pikashades

   May 27, 2023

   Good. Let this be their final break up so we can stop dancing around the "Will they, won't they" and they can both move onto seeing other people.

5. 

   Akash Sil

   May 27, 2023

   It’s a twisted sort of love story, in a way, as Howard promises “on the page, we’ve got one of comics’ greatest love stories: the world’s greatest detective and the world’s greatest criminal. And they both love Gotham City. But the course of true love never did run smooth.”

   ...between Zeb Wells' Spiderman and this, quite a few fans are going to end up having rage-induced aneurysms by the end of the year.

   1. 

      Kaingerc

      May 27, 2023

      Oh this is relatively mild and par for the course compared to what Zeb Wells is doing on Spider-Man.
      I'm mostly numb to it by now, but it wasn't enough for him to break up Peter and MJ for the millionth time, he also gave her a partner and kids just to really drive in the point.
      and as a cherry on top, they also announced he's killing off Ms. Marvel for extra "fan outrage fuel". (which, let's face it, is probably going to last about as long as Hydra-Cap, if even, but even so feels like like an especially cynical move to try and sell comics)

      1. 

         Hunter Zolomon

         May 27, 2023

         There's speculation Paul is Mephisto and that everything MJ thinks happened never did and its all been a big plot to screw over Peter with the kids not being real, the 4 year time period never being real and this supposed love for Paul not being real. If that does happen it could mean One More Day is finally being undone.

         1. 

            Robin MB

            May 28, 2023

            Sadly I doubt that. Outside of Nick Spencer's run Spider-Man has been in the control of the BND boys club for 15 years now. C.B & Nick Lowe have made it very clear that they have a "preference"(aka mandate.) With that happening over in Spider-Man and now Batman getting caught up in a dumb event looks like my two favorite characters are off the board for a bit.

         2. 

            Kaingerc

            May 28, 2023

            I don't know, they seem to now trying to push the Spider-Man and Black Cat relationship again.

            even though that pairing probably makes even less sense than the Bat/Cat one.

            though they do like to goof on the similarities themselves sometimes

            https://i.redd.it/224s8uja4...

6. 

   Commenter with no name

   May 27, 2023

   I am so sick of this! D.C. has completely torn down everything that there was to like about this relationship, either to preserve the status quo or because someone higher up doesn’t like it.

   That’s a huge problem with D.C. comics over the last +10 years, with the endless amount of reboots and retelling’s and just refusing to let characters and plots end. The cast keeps getting bigger and bigger which is making certain characters feel a lot more pointless (seriously how big does the “Bat-family” need to be? There are almost as many vigilantes in Gotham as there are criminals now). Honestly Comics!Bruce is starting to regress as a character, becoming a shambling zombie who has to go though the same plots and learn the same lessons...

   I wonder if stuff like this is intentional, like, D.C. knows that people don’t like their comics anymore so now they are spitting on the fans by destroying things, and characters, that they liked, back when comics were liked, just to spite them before DC comics is forced to completely shut down.

7. 

   devilman013

   May 27, 2023

   "One of comics' greatest love stories"

   Oh, give me a break.

8. 

   Robin MB

   May 27, 2023

   Woof, haven't heard a good thing at all about any of Howard's work so hard hard pass. I find it odd Zdarksky would even go along with this, come to think about it I'm surprised he even wanted to write the main bat book. He said before he didn't want to write Amazing Spider-Man because it would be too restrictive. So far I've found his run meh but nothing gets me to drop a book faster than when it crosses into a book I don't care about. Looks like Dawn Of DC will be another event filled whimper fest like Infinite Frontier

   And wait a second didn't we just have Joker War not too long ago? Followed immediately by Fear State? Is every bloody Batman story now just going to be an event with a bunch of pointless ones shots filled by an arc that sets up the next pointless event? I know I'm coming off as very frustrated but I expected better from Zdarksky. More Daredevil less vanilla dollar store Batman

   Edit: I just now realized I forgot to include Williamson's run which was literally just one event, Shadow War....so Joker War, Fear State, Shadow War, and now Gotham War. That's literally four big Batman events in three years! Five events in four years if you got back to City Of Bane. Six if you include that weekly event in Detective. That is bloody ridiculous that I can't read a story in the main Batman book without it being some bloated event

9. 

   Kerk Lastnameless

   May 27, 2023

   This would be fine as a throw-back stand-alone like the Batman and Joker Deadly Duo was. But if this is the latest event in the continuity, then it's nothing other than regression of Selina's character.

10. 

    Robin MB

    May 27, 2023

    Thinking about it now, this coupled with Zeb Well's Spider-Man might be the straws that break my back. I think I'm really going to limit my books and even then try to focus on not the big two. I suppose I could just read the Batman issues and if I heard good about the others I'll pick em up

11. 

    Sara

    May 27, 2023

    I am sorry but I cannot get over how dumb this event is.

    Who is this for? Who could possibly have asked for this? Tini Howard? Is she the person this is for?

    People who like the ship don't want to see them fight. People who hate the ship don't want to see them AT ALL. They want DC to drop it and never bring it up again. Nobody else cares enough to justify an event about it. No Red Hood fan was sitting at home, thinking, "Gee whiz, I sure do hope Jason fights with Bruce again!" And no real Red Hood fan likes that ugly costume.

    DC can't be serious.

    I don't get it.

12. 

    Rainhart Jaime

    May 28, 2023

    I have been enjoying Chip's run on Batman for the most part, haven't tried Tini's Catwoman. Stopped getting single issues awhile back switched to Hardbacks & Paperbacks, this will give me a skip and relief for my purse 😁

    1. 

       Robin MB

       May 28, 2023

       Same I've been enjoying ot mostly. His voice.for Bruce is spot on

13. 

    Victor Fuentes

    May 29, 2023

    I don't like the idea of this crossover/event... but I think it is necessary to do some changes in the Bat-verse of titles and this is an opportunity.
    - I think they should kill one or two characters because there are no consequences/effects on living in Gotham and there are too many bat-characters (at least kill one robin!! There are technically 5 and all alive).
    - Cancel titles (they already cancel Tim Drake and Batgirls)... I will cancel Batman Incorporated, Harley Quinn and Joker.
    - Change creative team on Catwoman (ASAP) or relaunched with new team.
    - New titles (maybe one Batgirl title, one Tim Drake (but now for real!)) with "new" writers: Dan Watters, Simon Spurrier, Christopher Cantwell,...
    - Relaunch one Bat team title... Outsiders is my choice... but the leader is Batwoman
    - Change focus on Detective Comics... similar to Action Comics... because with Batman and soon Batman & Robin, they'll have to change the structure or the main character (similar to the Batwoman period or the Gotham Knights period)

    1. 

       Sara

       May 29, 2023

       By the end of the first quarter of 2024, the Batman and Batman-adjacent line-up for ongoings will look like this:

       Batman
       Detective Comics
       Nightwing / Titans
       Red Hood (probably)
       Batman and Robin
       Catwoman
       Harley Quinn
       Poison Ivy
       World's Finest / Teen Titans

       And I predict one Bat-Family book, possibly Outsiders. I don't know how well Batman Inc sells. DC seems to think Ghost-Maker could be the next big thing, so they'll keep supporting the book for his sake unless the sales are abysmal.

       Harley's solo shouldn't exist, but I can't see DC cancelling it for more than a few months at a time. Joker's solo is terrible, but it sells better than Harley's. If Rosenberg's work isn't well-liked, they'll probably find a new writer and there will be a Season Three. It is what it is.

       I'd like to see more one-shots and minis about different characters. DC depended too much on the Batman cast to see them through 2021-2022, but it lead to memorable stories for underused characters, like Arkham Asylum: The Order of the World and Task Force Z.

       1. 

          Victor Fuentes

          May 29, 2023

          I think the same about Outsiders over Batman Inc... I prefer the Outsiders.
          Also I think Nightwing needs a new writer asap... It's been 3 years of Taylor and we haven't close the Heartless story! Also now it's more like Nightwing & the Titans vibe.

          1. 

             Sara

             May 29, 2023

             Yes! Nightwing definitely needs a new writer. Taylor has been writing too many series and his writing has gotten worse as a result. He needs to focus on one or two books.

             I prefer the Outsiders to Batman Inc, too. The current Batman Inc is just a Ghost-Maker book masquerading as a Batman Inc book.

14. 

    Nah.

    May 29, 2023

    Calling it now, this event (and the “war”) will end with Selina discovering that she’s pregnant. The JSA books imply that Helena was born about a year after “Dark Crisis” so the timeline would fit...