Report: Thomas Wayne has a big role in 'The Joker' with Joaquin Phoenix

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July 12, 2018

Earlier this week Joaquin Phoenix officially signed on to play The Joker in an origin movie that will be directed by The Hangover's Todd Phillips. The movie will begin shooting in New York City this September, and now some interesting new details have surfaced.

According to Collider's Jeff Sneider (formerly of Variety and The Wrap), Thomas Wayne has a "big role" in The Joker. The inclusion of Wayne means that his son Bruce Wayne definitely isn't Batman yet, so don't expect any cameos. He may not even be born yet depending on when the movie takes place.

Read Next: Joaquin Phoenix comments on 'The Joker': "It scares the f*cking shit out of me"

Sneider has also heard the rumor that Robert De Niro may have a role in The Joker. Sneider wasn't 100% sure on who he could be playing, but suggested that may be playing a TV host who talks about The Joker.

What do you make of Thomas Wayne having a big role in The Joker and Robert De Niro's possible involvement? Let me know in the comments below.

SOURCE: Collider Movie Talk

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175 comments

Hunter Zolomon
July 12, 2018
Ok didn't expect this, this is sounding more and more interesting. It also raises the question if he becomes The Joker in the film or just sets out on the path of becoming him? Either way i'm getting curious a lot more.
Just thinking what if De Niro is Falcone? Type cast yes? Would be awesome? Hell yeah.
1. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  and? Its not like Joker has ever had a defined age. Nicholson is 15 years older then Keaton after all.
  1. Mike 201
    July 12, 2018
    Yes, 15 not 40.
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      He said 20-30 years older not 40 years. Either way doesn't matter at all as The Joker has never had a known age.
      1. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Yeah but at the end it was made clear that was bullshit and Joker was lying, Dark Days later on even made it clear Joker isn't 100's of years old and immortal. Anyway its true The Joker has never had a known age, we don't even know when he was born or his name.
  2. Qthetar .
    July 12, 2018
    Who cares. Tell me what’s the big deal? It’s not like Joker has ever been about physical appearance.
    1. Jim Shields
      July 12, 2018
      Phoenix is 44. Wayne is still alive so that means Bruce is either not born or maybe 8 or so? At best he's 10 so that's 34 years difference. By the time Bruce hits 18 and then trains to be Batman Joker would be around 60?
      1. DickyBird
        July 12, 2018
        Just because Phoenix is 44, doesn’t mean that’s the Joker’s age. He could easily be 30 with makeup at the beginning before he kills The Wayne’s in front of Bruce. Then maybe he’ll look 44 when Bruce becomes Batman. Movie Magic is a helluva thing.
      2. Drake Grayson
        July 13, 2018
        Maybe the accident causes his cells not to age or decay. From every comic and episode of BtAS I’ve watched, I’ve always assumed the Joker to be immortal... or at least extremely lucky by surviving events that would kill anyone else.
      3. DickyBird
        July 13, 2018
        I don’t think that’s cannon... I don’t think it’s a big deal to assume Bats is younger than every villain he goes up against. Gotham didn’t go to shit because a man dressed up as a bat... he dressed as a bat to fight against the shit. Gotham the tv show is an interesting look into it although I fell off the boat early on and haven’t caught back up.
      4. Jesussaves
        July 13, 2018
        I am curious if the movie will have joker killing the Wayne's or if they'll go for Canon, having Joe chill kill them.
2. Jordan Smith
  July 16, 2018
  This shouldn't bother you, according to this project, it's outside of the DCEU so it might never even include Batman. Therefore why would it matter that he's a lot older.
  I would have reacted the same way, but after seeing 3 movie versions of the joker & maybe 12 versions of the Joker in the books - I like seeing new interpretations & how they mold into the Gotham world.
  Phoenix is one of the best actors alive, I am so excited to see what he would do as the joker.
  We will never see Daniel Day Lewis as the Joker, so he is the next best thing in my opinion.
Mustafa Al Khani
July 12, 2018
That is amazing if true we need a good story that doesn't have Batman all the time to see how characters can play out
1. Nahuel Benvenuto
  July 13, 2018
  a Joker standalone movie is like cereal without milk
  1. Jordan Smith
    July 16, 2018
    Not a chance, read Joker by Brian Azzarello, most of the book doesn't include Batman, and when it does it seems unnecessary. The Joker is such a great character, he doesn't need a Batman, the same way not all Batman films need a joker.
C.H
July 12, 2018
The Joker to be an ex employee of Wayne Enterprises?
1. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  In the N52 Batman origin The Riddler was so why not?
  1. Gotham n Cheese
    July 13, 2018
    Riddler was a n ex Wayne Enterprises employee in Batman Forever, too
ZaQueerdo
July 12, 2018
Perhaps they're taking a nod from Tim Burton's interpretation by having Joker be the one to kill the Waynes.
1. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  "Ever dance with the Devil in the pale moonlight?"
  I know people don't like that Napier killed Bruce's parents but it gave us that awesome line and i did like they created each other.
  1. Gotham n Cheese
    July 13, 2018
    Me too! It made them evenmore yin-yang than they already are.
marsz
July 12, 2018
biggest moron post of the day. Move along.
1. StarTheory
  July 12, 2018
  Gotta love the cowards that use guest accounts to insult you.
2. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  Says the moron using a "Guest" account. The fact you can't argue his opinion and just resort to insults shows your mentally age or actual age is that of a toddler.
  1. marsz
    July 12, 2018
    HAHAHAHAHAH this made my day. Please go back to your parent's basement.
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      It would be really hard considering i live in a flat on my own.
  2. Hunter Zolomon
    July 12, 2018
    I mean his first sentence was an insult and he added nothing or challenged LegendInMind opinion. Also yeah its hiding behind a "Guest" account like most trolls do because that means they can hide, if he wants respect he's got to give it back otherwise i will just call it out and treat it like the troll it is.
    1. Ed
      July 12, 2018
      Whats the difference between a guest account and an account not using your real name? Hiding behind a fictional characters name. Not everyone has discuss accounts. Whats your real name and address so we know exactly who you are simce you are so concerned about people hiding.
      1. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        The difference is when i say something people will know its me so i have to stick with what i say. A guest account has no identity at all fictional or otherwise, anyway i have no problems with people being respectful and non troll like with Guest accounts its when they hide behind them to throw insults and act like a troll i have a problem with them.
    2. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      Mate the only one here crying is you because the internet is what you thought it was and you saw "bad words". Jesus stop acting like a bloody snowflake and say hello to the real world.
      1. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Am i? Really? I'm actually quite happy if bored, got my favorite TV comedy on and i'm toying with some asshole online who keeps on digging a bigger hole haha
      2. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Hmm do i detect a hint of homophobia there? Seriously trying to bait me there won't work, both my Mum and Sister are Bi and i'm kinda am not sure so yeah saying i like holes won't actually bother me because that's like saying "nice to know you like tits" haha.
      3. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Again a hint of homophobia, maybe i should report you for hinting at hate speech haha
jrvc
July 12, 2018
this is increasing my curiosity more and more. Just want to confirm if Scorsese is finally a part of this. Him with De Niro as one of the mob heads in Gotham can be glorious!
1. BatmanNewsChris
  July 12, 2018
  Scorsese's name was left out of the news earlier this week, so I'm not sure he's still a part of it. His long time producing partner is though.
Flower & Monster & Golden Calf
July 12, 2018
OOOOh, it's an alt universe where Thomas Wayne never died and there was never a Batman!
1. OptimistPrime99
  July 12, 2018
  https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
CitiZeN_KaNE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
July 12, 2018
Wait.....What??? https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
NinjaGamer13
July 12, 2018
So in this universe the Joker would fight Batman from the Arkham Home for the Criminally Senile?
Kerk Lastnameless
July 12, 2018
All this shit is going to accomplish is just further dilute the characters. Else-world stories are sleeper bombs.
1. ZaQueerdo
  July 12, 2018
  Given that the only other Joker they have is...well, a joke, there's really not much to worry about. It's why I don't get the complaints about this "harming" the DCEU.
  1. NinjaGamer13
    July 12, 2018
    Jared Leto isn’t the problem. David Ayer and Suicide Squad’s script and editing was.
    1. ZaQueerdo
      July 12, 2018
      And? Point is nobody is gonna be shedding any tears about a new Joker when the current is a laughingstock.
      1. Mike 201
        July 12, 2018
        Really wasn’t Leto people hated, most hated his look. When you mess with a traditional character to much, fans reject it. This did not look like the Joker we know from the comics. He had some of his murderous trates, but the tats, gold teeth, and his clothing or lack of it look, NFW!! Romaro, Nicholson and Ledger were the Joker.
      2. NinjaGamer13
        July 12, 2018
        Wait till Leto gets in another movie, a better one, and I’m sure he can make a great Joker that we will all appreciate more.
      3. ZaQueerdo
        July 12, 2018
        And until that happens, nobody is gonna care about having a different Joker, especially if the movie is good.
      4. ZaQueerdo
        July 12, 2018
        That’s the problem with this franchise. Everything is about getting time to maybe win people back in the future instead of doing things right the first time.
        Wonder Woman excluded, of course.
      5. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Blame David Ayer and the Warner Bros. executives, then - the people responsible - not just anyone involved at all. We know Leto is a good actor, and there was nothing inherently wrong with him in the role itself; it was just the things surrounding him that were problematic.
      6. ZaQueerdo
        July 13, 2018
        Once again: nothing to do with what I said. The fact that it wasn't Leto's fault does not change the fact that his iteration of the character was not well received, nor does saying "If we give him a chance maybe people will like him more in a future movie!"
        It is what it is. The bar for Joaquin Phoenix is very low right now.
      7. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Well actually, originally you did specifically direct your comments at his Joker, calling him “a joke,” and this comment I responded to, you seemed to be directly criticizing the DCEU itself, not saying anything about the bar Phoenix has. But either way, I beg to differ that his iteration was not well-received. You and I both know Suicide Squad was a bad movie, but it was a pretty phenomenal success with the general audience, and the Joker was definitely a part of that, even becoming a hugely popular Halloween costume (along with Harley, of course, who was undoubtably even more popular, I understand, but still, my point stands).
      8. ZaQueerdo
        July 13, 2018
        >Well actually, originally you did specifically direct your comments at his Joker, calling him “a joke,”
        Yes, and I stand by that. The statement was not about Leto as an actor, it was about how the character went over, which was not well.
        >you seemed to be directly criticizing the DCEU itself
        I was.
        >d. You and I both know Suicide Squad was a bad movie, but it was a pretty phenomenal success with the general audience, and the Joker was definitely a part of that, even becoming a hugely popular Halloween costume (along with Harley, of course, who was undoubtably even more popular, I understand, but still, my point stands).
        You keep saying that as though Joker was not a hugely popular Halloween costume before Suicide Squad for some reason. Suicide Squad did not boost the popularity or profile of the Joker. That'd be like saying BVS is why we see so many Batman costumes.
      9. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        I never saw Joker being such a big deal, including with adults until SS. Well, of course, besides Ledger, but he’s never been as popular since then until SS. He and Harley were what everyone seemed to be dressing up as for a while. And of course the Hot Topic crowd seemed to love him :P
      10. Ned Ryerson
        July 13, 2018
        They dressed up as his joker specifically because it was so pushed in marketing to that hot topic crowd. The marketing and imagery sold a fashion, well before the movie even came out; there wasn't a fond embrace of the character outside of a specific 11-19ish crowd and fans of Thirty Seconds to Mars, Leto's band. And those people were more interested in Harley Quinn and the joker as what they were anticipating to be a tragic love story like a twisted Romeo and Juliet. WB did a good job marketing a concept, regardless of whether the end product delivered.
      11. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        And I would say he is still remembered after the movie, too. Especially considering most of the general audience actually liked the film, regardless of how we feel about it. And also especially considering all that endless internet outcry there was for a while about getting more Joker scenes and such. I definitely stand by the fact that the general audience seemed to like him. Sorry :P
    2. Mark
      July 12, 2018
      Leto is the reason we won't get that Joker & Harley, though, because AIUI Margot no longer wants anything to do with him.
    3. Wintervention
      July 12, 2018
      @NinjaGamer13:disqus
      I'm curious as to what Joker you would like to see Leto portray? I really couldn't grasp what Leto was going for to be honest. Honest Trailers summed it up along the lines of "Jim Carey with a meth addiction".
      We've had the charming and sadistic Joker (Nicholson), we've had the Prince of Crime (Hamill), we've had the sociopathic and twisted agent of anarchy (Ledger).
      What do they have left to work with?
      1. Rust
        July 12, 2018
        I would say they drew inspiration from a number of different kinds of Jokers, but put a spin on it - which is fine by me when it's done with tact.
        Personally, I liked the Hannibal and Bowie influence, but I hated the modern gang culture influence. First two suit Joker fundamentally, the latter betrays him completely.
      2. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Well if you want to limit a character with such vast, complicated potential as the Joker to just those few labels you arbitrarily decided on, I would say he is portraying what seems to be a mix of the Clown Prince of Crime and twisted agent of chaos ones you mentioned. Happy now? :P
        But what I don’t understand about your question is, even if it were true that they’ve run out of ways to portray the Joker, does that invalidate any performance of him that comes after? Is it wrong to use the character anymore?
      3. Wintervention
        July 13, 2018
        @NinjaGamer13:disqus
        Been lurking on BNews for roughly 3 weeks or so, been in the comments section, reading the disputes and debates and your response honestly doesn't surprise me. I've seen your comments on nearly every DCEU article I was interested in, and they all followed a pattern: thinly veiled mockery, utilizing emojis to attempt to conceal your arrogance.
        I asked you a simple question. No hostility. No ulterior motive. You responded with defensiveness.
        @disqus_nTlPOU2CZw:disqus responded like a normal, mature person. Completely neutral in sharing his opinion. You? You belittle everyone who does not share your opinion.
        My question was simple - I don't understand what Leto was going for, and I was asking you, very clearly in the *opening line* of my post, what 'what Joker' you would like Leto to display.
        Now, I don't care what you think, because your opinion is not objective; its a Trojan Horse. I'd rather talk to someone like Rust.
      4. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Okay then
        I didn’t say there was an ulterior motive, but I disagree that it was a simple question. What you mean seems pretty clearly to me to be that you think every possible interpretation of the Joker has been done (based on the fact you listed each iteration’s classification and then said “What do they have left to work with?”), and then the implication of that is technically left open in your comment, since you don’t answer your own question. But your leading paragraph describing your apparent negative perspective on Leto’s characterization seems to make it pretty clear the the implication is supposed to be equally negative.
        So I made the natural conclusion that you were suggesting it might not be valid for Leto to even be the character and play it the way he is or whatever. Honestly it’s still a bit unclear to me, and I wasn’t sure of any of it, and so I honestly asked you. And now I’m being accused of insulting you. I gave you my honest response, not veiling a thing, just trying to figure out where you’re coming from with your negative criticism, and now I’m in trouble for it.
        I could jump to accusations about you based on this like you just did with me, perhaps that you already had your mind set against me despite the fact that we’ve never talked, and so this was all just an attempt to get at me, but I won’t. I would like to believe that that could be wrong, and that I could be misinterpreting this situation. I like to think people I don’t know usually are pretty nice.
      5. Wintervention
        July 13, 2018
        @NinjaGamer13:disqus I *am* a nice person, but like I said, I've watched you over three weeks, watching how you respond to people. You cherry pick comments you disagree with and belittle the people behind them, never once considering that their opinion might be just as valid as yours. I'm not talking about people like @Reverse_Flash, who clearly comes on here looking for a fight, I'm talking about the average Joe, the regular visitor. You belittle and mock them from your throne of superiority.
        Now, allow me to lay out the full intention behind my question which I, sincerely, believe was clear as diamond.
        Leto's Joker was not well received. We don't know if that was a result of studio meddling, the 10 minutes of footage cut, the strange amalgam of Heath Ledger's voice and Nicholson's crime boss, or just simply the fact that he didn't nail the character. It's unfortunate his scenes got hacked apart, and I feel for the guy, but his Joker was... for lack of a better word, a /joke/. But, I want the dude to have another chance, but before that, he needs to nail down exactly what he is going for.
        Right now? WB has no idea. Leto himself seems to have no idea. And that means I have no idea, which is why I was, very clearly and very succinctly, asking you what you personally would like to see. While I think you're arrogant and incredibly patronizing, I also respect the fact that you have your own opinions and you love these characters too. I wanted to know your opinion.
        Instead, I get this:
        "Happy now? :P"
        "does that invalidate any performance of him that comes after? Is it wrong to use the character anymore?"
        You can't tell me you weren't smirking when you wrote that last part. Hence why I said "mockery veiled with emojis".
        Compared to @disqus_nTlPOU2CZw:disqus :
        "I would say they drew inspiration from a number of different kinds of Jokers, but put a spin on it - which is fine by me when it's done with tact."
        Succinct. Objective. Open to discussion.
        You? You came out with your spear at the ready, your armor on and the visor of your helmet down.
        So, no, I did not come into it with negativity. I came into it with an open mind. But I open this to you - what does it say to you that someone who has never posted in the comments, would go ahead and make an account *just* to tell you this? Have you considered the fact that the reason you rile people so much is because of your attitude?
      6. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Pretty sure I don’t. I’m usually only talking to the regulars, with whom I (and many others) have been in a continual debate for something like 1 year now, so I’m not sure how you could have come to such a drastically misrepresentative conclusion unless you’re mistaking me for someone else (which isn’t that hard to do on forums like these).
        The rare occasions I talk to someone new, I try to address them with a tone correspondent to what they seem ready to engage with, all while not deviating from my commitment to fact checking inaccuracies or moderating extremely negative criticisms where it seems worthwhile to do so in order to try to quell the endless excessively hateful propaganda that has been pushed at many fans of particular movies for years now to a bully-like degree.
        And where I sometimes take out my frustrations on people besides those I am truly frustrated or defensive with, I try to apologize.
        Perhaps all of that is what you’re confusing with cherry picking and disregarding opinions?
        So if I have unconsciously taken out any aggression on you wrongfully, I am sorry, but I assure you I was not aware of any intent to attack you, only to meet what I perceived as seemingly unfair criticism with an honest response and question regarding what I thought to be the implication of your comment.
        By your standard, should I be insulted that you felt the need to repeatedly point out to me that you believed your intent was so clear? I say this because that certainly seems like it was intentionally pointed. Generally I would not care, though, because I think we all have the right to do that in such conversations as these, but since you seem highly critical of my method of speaking and attitude, I thought I should point that out. Perhaps you’re noticing things in me not because you genuinely take issue with them, but because you have already decided you’re against me, as I continue to suspect based on things like that, despite my desire to not believe that.
        First, I would like to thank you for being fair enough to feel for Leto and to be willing to give him another chance, regardless of your opinions on his performance. Fairness of that sort is a quality many of the people I argue with on here do not share, to give you some perspective, since you’ve only seen a few weeks of what has been going on for years.
        But immediately I find us unable to continue. I can’t agree with your basic premise for this conversation. Leto’s Joker was not well-received by whom? Because from what I have seen, most of the general audience seems to like him. All I know is that a number of users on this site do not like his portrayal, and I already know the “why” behind that.
        Those who strongly disliked Leto’s Joker have explained to me quite that it is due to 1. His character design, particularly his tattoos and grill, and that is something most everyone seems to agree with, including those who go easier on him, like myself, but this in itself has nothing to do with his actual performance, really 2. The never clearly defined complaint that he was “over-the-top,” which seems like an inherently impossible claim for a character such as the Joker, whose fundamental characteristics generally REQUIRE that of him.
        So, when posed with such a seemingly impossible idea and with no real explanation as to how it could be true, I have no choice but to reason as to what might be the root of this criticism, since I cannot see it myself, and I can only do that based on other things I know. I know that point number 1 is still definitely a major factor in people’s perception of this Joker; I know that Suicide Squad as a whole is - at least as most everyone here agrees, including myself - a pretty bad movie, regarding the script, editing, etc.; I know that all of those who dislike his portrayal seem to admit that Leto has otherwise been a very good actor; I know that Leto’s Joker had very minimal screentime in the whole movie; I know that WB reportedly most likely botched the movie to some degree by forcibly making many alternate cuts of the film using a trailer company out of paranoia; I know that Leto said something along the lines of there having been enough footage of his Joker that was cut that there could have been an entirely other movie full of it and that he considered what he was doing some of his best work, so he was very upset about that; I know David Ayer was the writer and director in charge of the whole project, claimed the theatrical release of the film was “his movie,” and owned up to many of his mistakes regarding its writing and production; I know that most of the general audience seemed to be fine with - or even quite fond of - this Joker and the movie as a whole; and I know from years’ worth of reading and 1 year’s worth of engaging with comments that many of the people that have expressed this criticism of Leto’s Joker tend to be in the same crowd as those who have an overblown, biased, hateful outlook on many DCEU projects and their makers and their fans beyond what would be considered normally reasonable or fair.
        So, putting all these things together, and considering my limited experience in acting, I conclude that it seems this criticism of Leto as Joker is simply unfair. When all of the facts I know point to him as an actor being of good quality and literally every surrounding circumstance outside of him in this scenario being of bad quality, it seems the most likely explanation is that the few who seem to have this really condemning outlook on his portrayal are just attributing an overall negative experience to every specific within that experience or blanketing everything in the usual close-minded, predetermined negativity that they have shown to express before.
        So the question of what he is going for is not the central issue here. Here is what I believe: Leto gave a performance. I can see some good elements in it, and I can see some sub-optimal elements to it. But it seems impossible to have any real strong stance on it one way or the other, and that it would be unfair to take one, based on the facts that he had such a tiny amount of time on the screen anyway and that that tiny amount of screentime also happened to be under bad direction, with a bad script, in a poorly edited movie, all while having a pretty universally disliked design. All of those are things that can severely affect the perception of something like this. And so that is why I will always defend an actor who is being relentlessly attacked, just like I have done with the rest of the DCEU, because all being hypercritical and negative can do at this point is break the spirits of the actors and the moviemakers and the fans, so it’s no good in this form.
        Basically, to me Leto seemed to nail at least one significant thing considering all the things working against him: the crazy and creepy vibe. So for a character like the Joker, that’s positive. So all I’m saying is cut him some slack, people. Be honest, be fair, be positive, and let’s reserve harsh judgments until he can get a proper movie under his belt, because Suicide Squad was not one. That’s all I’m arguing, and that’s all I want. I don’t have a firm position on this issue other than it’s unfair to make harsh judgments on it in this case. All I want to see is a good Joker, which can be done in an infinite number of ways, many of which I cannot foresee or expect because the imaginations of those who will make his next film could be totally different than mine, but so far, all things considered, it looks like we’re probably heading in a fine direction right now.
        And I haven’t done any of this at all in a particularly biting way on this article, I would say, so I really don’t understand these accusations you’re making of me.
        So you think I’m arrogant and incredibly patronizing? To think you were lecturing me about something as trivial as my use of emojis, and yet you can freely malign my character like that.
        Well here’s what *I* think about *you*. I think you are telling the truth when you say you’ve only been following this for a few weeks.
        I, on the other hand, have done extensive researching and dissecting the arguments for and against the quality of movies I felt like I liked, like Batman v Superman, and I came to my conclusions about them based on the same universal standards used for some time now. Ever since then, I have seen and had to endure myself literally years of pure vitriol and hate and actual, provable lies and hyperbolic, hypocritical criticisms directed at movies held passionately dear by many, the people who made them, and even those who simply expressed the dissenting view that things were not quite as written in stone about those movies as those rude people constantly shouted at us and across the globe liked to say.
        No, I was not smirking, thank you very much. I was not veiling mockery. I was not doing any of that. Like I said, I tried to open your mind the the negative implications I perceived you were making and asked honest questions to try to solidify my understanding. That’s all.
        Comparing anyone to Rust is pointless, frankly. He’s the most patient and soft-spoken person on this whole site. I’m sorry NONE of the rest of ANY of us speak as pleasantly as him (not just me, as you seem to want to suggest).
        And that’s no dig at him; I really respect that quality about him, too, and we could all learn a thing or two about how he presents himself. But it’s hard, especially when this crowd is always debating or criticizing things everyday. And that’s fine, too, we have that right and that can be a healthy thing to engage in and this is our only real place to discuss this sort of stuff in many cases, but it just can be a bit of a challenge to maintain that level of calm at all times when in those types of discussions, just by their very nature.
        I for one try to be positive, and that is actually largely one of the reasons I do come into conflict with some of these people, to be honest, because there are some who are always negative, and excessively so. So I will fight back sometimes. I will defend my views. I will defend those they attack. That’s me, trying to support positivity, because all fostering that sort of hypercritical negativity can do is break the spirits of the actors, moviemakers, and fans, and I’m tired of it after all this time since the backlash of Batman v Superman.
        But I also try to promote more civil and less controversial discussions myself whenever I can - I upvote a lot of people’s comments, even if I regularly disagree with the person; I have a few of what I would consider friendships (as much as that can apply to a setting like this) with people who allow even conversations in which we disagree to remain respectful, as well as having conversations in which we do agree; I always drop arguments that do occur after a few days because I don’t ever have the energy or time or care enough to fight that long with one person about one thing; and almost always my more argumentative stuff consists of RESPONSES only, and not original comments. My original comments tend to be things like expressing praises or concerns regarding the content of the article, making jokes, etc., especially in these last few articles, I think.
        I would not use such dramatic metaphor to describe my comment to you at all, and to be perfectly honest, it is a bit laughable to me to even think of it in such extremes. I make an innocent comment, whose worst possible description could be that it was a bit snarky and fundamentally misunderstood the comment it was made in response to, and I’m being accused of going to war! This is ludicrous! Go take a look at the users here. You have people textually shouting each other down endlessly, cussing each other out, insulting each other’s families, openly abusing each other. And yet *I* am the one you choose to single out. Those are the users you should be worried about, friend, not me. I can be stubborn. I can argue. I can be a smart aleck. But I never swear at people or bring their families into it or anything like that. You want someone who actually goes to war, there are users and trolls here actually like that.
        “So, no, I did not come into it with negativity. I came into it with an open mind.” I’m sorry, but I struggle to classify wanting to ask about one’s opinion despite “think[ing] [he is] arrogant and incredibly patronizing,” and expecting him to (as you perceive) insult you when he answers as coming to the conversation free of negativity and with an fully open mind.
        What it says to me, as I have probably ended up making clear in all of the things in this message leading up to this, is that you clearly are missing some things. And it’s not even your fault, assuming you’re not actually just wanting to get at me, since you say you’re relatively new. I understand. I’m sorry if we got off on the wrong foot somehow, but perhaps let’s not make such hasty personal judgments. I take serious attacks on my character seriously, as you can probably guess by the length of this comment (which I am really sorry for, by the way).
        As for why I rile people up? I already know that. It’s because I constantly and boldly challenge the narrative they have been trying to shove down some of our throats nonstop for years now. Of course they hate that. Also because I’m an objectivist, which is sadly something that has become bothersome in today’s postmodern culture, even for those use the same objectivist type arguments as I do, whether they admit it or not (and some do). They are even part of the reason I debate in the way that I do in the first place!
      7. Rust
        July 13, 2018
        It struck me today that I totally forgot you asked a good question that a lot of people don't consider: "What do they have left to work with?"
        I quite enjoy the 'I'm what creeps in the dark and waits under your bed' take on the character from Scott Snyder in his New 52 Batman run. Would love to see that approach adapted in live action by someone like Matt Reeves.
        There are some ideas that still haven't been tapped as deeply as they could too, even if they were introduced in previous takes. I'd like to see the obsession with Batman taken further, his sense of poetry/art and irony, why he finds things so funny, et cetera. After TDK came out, I was dreaming of a Silence of the Lambs sort of thing from a locked-up Joker. Shame we lost Heath...
        You could also adapt my personal favorite scene from The Killing Joke, where Batman tries to reason with the Joker and even offers to help him reform in a very personal, warm way. The idea that, eventually, their crazy dance has to end somehow, is a major thread in that book.
        Other than just adaptations, writers could also try to tread new waters of course. I liked the shake-up and improvement Nolan gave to Batman's origin. The movies should try to set standards that inspire growth in the comics while also honoring them.
      8. Wintervention
        July 13, 2018
        I love that you mentioned Scott Snyder! I referenced in another comment that he is, in my opinion, the best Batman writer of the last two decades. Endgame and Death of the Family were phenomenal. The whole "lurks under your bed" thing was made even more terrifying when he talks to Gordon about how he literally sometimes sits under his bed, listening to him crying, and how he wants to hug him. We have *no* idea if he's joking or not. *That's* the Joker I would love to see.
        Heck, even The Pale Man thing they were going with in Endgame? Where he appeared in all those photos?
        I think, if we look at it from a DCEU franchise-building perspective, he needs to have already had a rich history with Affleck's Batman. Not just the killing Jason side, but the ACE chemical/Red Hood, the shooting Barbara Gordan, etc. But the issue with that is, that's what we all know as 'canon' Joker. And when you think of canon Joker, who does everyone immediately think of? Mark Hamill. So my question in regards to "what do they have left to work with" more meant - 'so many things have already been covered that he is inevitably going to be compared to them'.
        On an unrelated note - can we all agree that Troy Baker was mind-blowingly good in Origins?
    4. NinjaGamer13
      July 12, 2018
      No, Leto was also a problem.
      1. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Maybe you’re talking about his tattoos, to which I would agree, but I’ve had enough conversations with you to know that anyone who thinks they are a red elf just because they “say so” is not ready for a real rational discussion :P
    5. Drake Grayson
      July 13, 2018
      Truth. I’d still like to see Leto v Batfleck if possible. A Bat double jumping on a purple car driven by a Joker double doesn’t cut it. We need to see them interact and fight.
      1. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Though I did love seeing Batman clinging to the top of that car, too :P
  2. Kerk Lastnameless
    July 12, 2018
    Else-worlds affect cannon for better or worse. Nightmare scene is the result of Snyder loving Injustice. And I believe this sub-universe is the result of Gotham's popularity.
    1. ZaQueerdo
      July 12, 2018
      So what exactly is the worst case scenario? That WB is compelled to produce a DCEU Joker that isn’t shit?
      1. Kerk Lastnameless
        July 12, 2018
        Worst case scenario -- they'll learn wrong lessons and decide go the rout of transformers.
      2. ZaQueerdo
        July 12, 2018
        I'm not sure what the Transformer comparison means.
      3. Kerk Lastnameless
        July 12, 2018
        Complete disregard of the main character's natures and the lore. Don't understand Transformers? Ok, maybe you'll understand the Gotham comparison -- entertainment value aside, its stupidity levels are off the charts and it does not give a shit about the lore of Batman. I fear that these else-world stories will entertain the general pubic enough that WB will just send the lore to hell and let its directors run wild with whatever crazy ideas they may have.
      4. ZaQueerdo
        July 12, 2018
        It's not as though these movies have never taken liberties with the source material to begin with, so I don't see how Joker is gonna be a big issue.
    2. Kerk Lastnameless
      July 12, 2018
      You got your numbers wrong, check again.
IamTheOneWhoKnocks
July 12, 2018
This sounds very interesting. Maybe he has some kind of personal beef with Thomas Wayne. Anyways, I have no doubts about this movie due to Joaquin Phoenix signing on.
Mark
July 12, 2018
Watch what you want, but I can think of several reasons to make this movie:
<ul>
<li>It's cheap and WB thinks it will be profitable;</li>
<li>Todd Phillips thinks it will be cool;</li>
<li>Joaquin Phoenix thinks it will be cool.</li>
</ul>
A corollary list of "Things no one in charge at WB gives a flying F about and which therefore have no bearing on filmmaking decisions" would include: comics precedent; comics canon; the comparatively minuscule number of people who actually buy comics; whatever was done in the DCAU; and lunatics raving on Reddit.
(For the record, I do count myself among the "comparatively minuscule number of people who actually buy comics," but I quit worrying about canon, etc. 20 years ago.)
GuardianOfGotham
July 12, 2018
https://i.imgur.com/iWKad22...
Why? Why can’t anyone make a Batman prequel without dragging the Waynes into it?
1. Ed
  July 12, 2018
  Maybe because the Wayne's are the richest and most influential family in Gotham.
Sense
July 12, 2018
Two Stoner Theories :
1-Maybe he kills the Wayne’s in the alley at the end of the movie
2- Maybe Thomas Wayne is Batman (Get Jeffrey Dean Morgan on the phone) and this is the alternate timeline that the Flash travels to in his Paradox movie.
lowdevil
July 12, 2018
This is sounding better and better.....and i do remember not to long ago when this news first came out MOST OF YOU were all pretty negative about it.
1. attentionisattention
  July 13, 2018
  still feeling pretty negative. I'll probably see it (as I said before), but I still would much rather have something else
Oyarzun Kramer
July 12, 2018
Really? Are they going to pull off the Batman 89 again? or "The amazing spiderman 2" and the Waynes will end up creating the batman persona for Bruce? or is it something like the "aunt May" spinoff with Martha being a super spy?
Guest
July 12, 2018
1. Ed
  July 12, 2018
  Glass half empty kinda guy are ya.
  1. Rust
    July 12, 2018
    I love this analogy. lol
OptimistPrime99
July 12, 2018
https://uploads.disquscdn.c... A WHAT IF the Batman was never created, but the Joker was, Elseworlds story?🤔
1. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  They have stated that, its been known for sometime they looking to explore Elseworld type stories starting with this Joker film.
  1. Hunter Zolomon
    July 12, 2018
    Last week the film wasn't even confirmed and here we are now. Its pretty clear what this as the DCEU is "Prime Earth" and everything separate from it from here on will be an Elseworld story.
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      I agree, imagine it all ending with a Crisis film?
2. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  You know i would a love a Flashpoint film what wasn't the main plot but an adaption of the Thomas Wayne Batman tie in.
  1. OptimistPrime99
    July 12, 2018
    Calling it now! For this Joker movie, I could see the Waynes walking down a dark alley. And as Joe Chill approaches them, he asks for money. Thomas Wayne gives him some cash, and the scene ends.😂 I still think the movie will need a Detective Jim Gordon, as the film's "good guy".
3. ZaQueerdo
  July 13, 2018
  People aren't very attached to the current Joker, so I doubt this is gonna be all that confusing or an issue for them.
  1. NinjaGamer13
    July 13, 2018
    General audience certainly are, considering he was such a popular Halloween costume, and SS was absolutely eaten up by them despite how bad it was.
    1. ZaQueerdo
      July 13, 2018
      Joker's always been a popular character for Halloween costumes. That's nothing to do with this movie, just like SS's success. Of the characters introduced in the movie, Harley was far more popular.
      1. NinjaGamer13
        July 13, 2018
        Not Suicide Squad Joker. He didn’t exist until Suicide Squad. And people were dressing as him in mass.
        You’re right that it has nothing to do with this Joker movie (besides the fact that they’re both movies including iterations of the same character, of course). I never said it did. I was addressing your claim that people aren’t attached to Leto’s Joker. That’s all.
        Harley Quinn was HUGELY popularly, yes, of course. That doesn’t erase the Joker’s popularity, though.
Mike 201
July 12, 2018
So Bruce/Batman and the Joker will be about 40 years apart in age now. Hahahahahaha. I thought my jokes were bad!!
This is starting to make the TV show Gotham look better and better every news release.
I guess no one can complain anymore about Nicholson’s Joker being to old!!!
1. Mike 201
  July 12, 2018
  I love it and love Camron’s Joker. End of the last season was great. I hope the final season is the best!
  1. OptimistPrime99
    July 12, 2018
    If they crush it this season. The DC Universe Streaming app, could keep it going.
2. Flower & Monster & Golden Calf
  July 12, 2018
  It has its moments. I wouldn't say it's good all the time.
3. OptimistPrime99
  July 12, 2018
  Complaints about Nicholson being too old of a Joker? Pretty sure that was never a thing. https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
  1. Mike 201
    July 14, 2018
    Cpt. DC, not sure if you are as old as me, I’m 53, but in 1988/89, even without internet back then, everyone was saying Jack was born to play the Joker, but there was a bit of rumbling on his age. Like with the talk of Keaton not being fit for Batman due to being a comedian, both issues were squashed when the movie came out and ended up being a blockbuster at that time.
    1. Bruce
      July 16, 2018
      I don't remember a word of guff about Nicholson. It was *all* anti-Keaton (and I was at the front of the line on that... Until the first trailer dropped!)
4. Knight Radiant
  July 12, 2018
  I am not open minded to poor acting and cheese.
  1. Knight Radiant
    July 12, 2018
    Probably so. We are on a DC site after all. What does that say about us?
Hunter Zolomon
July 12, 2018
Actually The Killing Joke in its very pages heavily implies the "origin" you have read is a load of rubbish, the "multiple choice" line actually came from The Killing Joke itself and is one of the most famous quotes from it. Jesus get your facts straight mate.
Also The Joker in the comics has never really had an origin and the only constant is him being dressed as the "Red Hood" and falling into a vat of acid after Batman confronted him. His name, backstory and what he was before Joker has rarely been touched upon and when it has like TKJ does it usually hints this is just one possible version. Its only really Elseworld stories what deal with his history and even then its vague.
1. ItzSilentStorm
  July 12, 2018
  folks seem to think the people involved with this film are completely unaware of the whole mysterious past thing. WHo is to say they wont play off that? I have heard a lot of theories that, if it were any other character, would be considered pretty wild, but because its the joker, and a joker origin no less, it actually kind of makes sense. But either way, to me whats cool about the joker is not the fact that he has a mysterious origin, but rather that he is so interpretable, which ironically enough, is my own interpretation of whats cool about the character. If you want to give him an origin, you ultimately can because thats how you see the character
  1. Hunter Zolomon
    July 12, 2018
    I think it would be kinda cool if he doesn't have a name, hell make him a compulsive lair when he lies about his past and who he is to every new person he meets.
2. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  Look your clearly talking out of your ass and you clearly don't know what the hell you are talking about. That "origin" is just one way Joker remembered it, the next day providing Batman didn't kill him he will remember it another way. The "origin" you read most likely didn't happen at all or least the way you read it, that's a known fact about the comic end off. That famous line from Joker is Alan Moore telling you The Joker is an unreliable narrator so don't trust or accept everything you have read in the book, end of the day the whole reason he does what he does in the story is because he remembered the "origin" you read and so because of that he wants to prove a point, he's so far gone he doesn't know what his past is anymore (i bet you don't get the final joke either right?).
  1. Hunter Zolomon
    July 12, 2018
    Go ahead report me snowflake, i'm on here all the time commenting and Chris would actually agree with me most likely but he will just kinder of course. Me i lose interest in being kind when people talk out of their ass.
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      Good i don't care. I suggest you brace yourself for this sites community, i'm one of the more reasonable ones on here haha
      1. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Well not with this account as it was made a month ago haha
      2. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        It means your claim is baseless and can't be backed up.
  2. Hunter Zolomon
    July 12, 2018
    Oh no i said i said ass, how will you survive now? Please don't cry i didn't mean to break that bubble you're in haha.
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      You need to learn what insults are dude. Saying get your head out your ass is not a fucking insult dude, its saying get of your high horse and just accept what i'm telling you. You have already contraindicated yourself anyway so you already lost this.
      1. ItzSilentStorm
        July 12, 2018
        i thought snowflake was something that conservatives said?
      2. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Your acting upset because i said ass so i called you a snowflake because if the word ass offends you then you are as delicate as a snowflake.
        I don't actually care about this at all now, i'm just killing time as its 12:12 at night and i'm bored haha
      3. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        I gave you a perfectly reasonable response originally but because i said ass you got upset.
      4. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        You can't take criticism very well can you? Assuming that pic is you that means you're an adult right so how about just accept you're wrong for once and grow up.
      5. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        You know what the best thing is here, your "nice guy" routine is slipping now.
      6. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Nah your fake "politeness" and fake "reasonable" behavior shows that, i saw what you were in your first response to me on another comment. You may not throw insults around directly but you hide them in patronizing and condescending comments and replies. You act like you have the higher ground but really you are just as bad as the rest of us.
      7. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Better then me? Arrogant much? Thing is anyone looking back through these comments would side with me here, simple fact is you said a load of stuff what was incorrect i then corrected you with a scan as prove, you couldn't accept that though even though pretty much everyone else would agree with me on everything i said (Nolan for instance was inspired by TKJ for his Joker having multiple origins). You then kick off because i said a bad word or two but then later on actually get worse then me with even hinting at homophobic insults.
        Look mate if you really think you are better then me then act like it simple, i've being doing this to past time until mates arrive and not because i actually give a flying fuck, well they are here and i'm going out so good bye "John Wesley". I look forward to rarely if ever seeing you again on here like other tourists who show up to cause trouble and then piss off.
      8. NinjaGamer13
        July 12, 2018
        You're acting like quiet the cunt. Just stop. Go troll somewhere else.
      9. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        "Have fun with your imaginary “mates”. Tata, kid!" Ah yes that typical internet thing where everyone assumes everyone else is a kid to try and make themselves appear adult.
      10. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Yeah i'm back so what? I came to check out other comments and see what others thoughts on the actual news.
        Oh by the way something i grabbed from Wiki, its been on there for years so its 100% legit and is backed by writers, DC themselves and 1000's of YT vids on TKJ. Basically it confirms everything i've said and you wrong. You want to prove me wrong then find something what does, also go and find a clear cut origin and backstory what was regarded as canon before TKJ, go on i dare you although you won't be able too. Am i just being a asshole now? Fuck yes haha
        "The Joker serves as an unreliable narrator. He admits to his own uncertainty, as he has disparate memories of the single event ("Sometimes I remember it one way, sometimes another ... If I'm going to have a past, I prefer it to be multiple choice!"), accentuating the comic's depiction of "a world unraveling toward relentless urban violence and moral nihilism"
      11. Hunter Zolomon
        July 13, 2018
        You call me a hypocrite but hey at least i'm not a homophobic as you have hinted at and least i haven't contradicted myself either unlike you.. Face it mate i have the moral high ground here based purely on those two things, i mean notice how no one had sided with you here, noticed how you reported me yet Chris done nothing about it or even cared.
Hunter Zolomon
July 12, 2018
and here it is the quote what TDK "started" apparently haha
https://i1.wp.com/www.thele...
1. Hunter Zolomon
  July 12, 2018
  Well you clearly don't understand it.
  1. Hunter Zolomon
    July 12, 2018
    When people like Grant Morrison say the same stuff as me then yeah i'm right here, The Killing Joke is my favorite Joker story and i read it every year so i know it insanely well so give up.
    I posted a scan proving me right here, Joker actually confirms what i'm saying so yeah end off....
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      July 12, 2018
      Haha this fun, i would actually insult but i worry you will slash your wrists because i said ass and snowflake haha
      1. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Well you are so why not?
      2. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        I could say a lot worse if i wanted, i'm actually being fairly civil here really. I mean all this because i torn down a post you made with inaccurate stuff and false facts. You're calling me upset but you got butthurt because i posted actual facts i mean yeah ok...
      3. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        You see you say emotionally but i don't really care for emotions or empathy that much with people i don't know so i don't see how that works with me.
      4. Rust
        July 12, 2018
        Hours of bickering later, still waiting for a response on the actual topic.
        https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
        Should we order a pizza?
      5. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        In fairness to me my first reply to him was pretty civil, he made an inaccurate comment with false facts so i corrected him, not my fault he couldn't accept that and not my fault he takes offense at me saying "get your head out of your ass".
        I did actually comment on the article though about the topic and was the 2nd or 3rd person to do so, in case you missed i basically said i'm getting more and more curious about the film now and like the sound of this news.
      6. Rust
        July 12, 2018
        I meant him, not you. You debunked him and he deflected to hours of this behavior instead of proving his original point.
        Sorry, I wasn't clear there. haha
      7. Hunter Zolomon
        July 12, 2018
        Oh right sorry, i've just replied with an actual quote saying what i've said just so i had some evidence. I shouldn't bother but oh well, he can take it or leave it i don't care now. I can understand him if TKJ was some unknown niche comic but its widely known and it having unreliable narrator is one of the most famous things from it. I do love though his original comment says Nolan "invented" the "Multiple Choice" (quite funny as Nolan took that from TKJ) and then i show him a scan from TKJ proving TKJ invented that line and thing but he then says that isn't good enough haha. If it wasn't for his comment history i would say he's a troll.
      8. Rust
        July 12, 2018
        https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
Knight Radiant
July 12, 2018
Why not Bruce or Batman or not make this movie?
Mike
July 12, 2018
Joker did have his own comic book though...but I see what your saying. Joker is my favorite comic character so I'm torn. I hope it's good but I'm iffy on an origin story.
1. Mike
  July 12, 2018
  I was talking about the 1975 Joker comic series. But jokingly as that series was just goofy even though he was the protagonist. Because he was the protagonist, the writers couldn't have him kill anyone and he had to get arrested(Batman was never in an issue) at the end of each one, breaking out in the beginning of next one. That's basically why it's so damned goofy.
  1. Mike
    July 12, 2018
    Yeah very short-lived. Definitely not definitive, it was goofy, kid friendly Joker. It wasn't great by any means.That's why I said it jokingly, or ironically if you will.
BatmanNewsChris
July 12, 2018
Kind of, I guess. There hasn't been an official word about this movie yet. All we know is it's not connected to the DCEU. It's going to be its own thing.
Mark
July 12, 2018
But he wasn't "shrouded in complete mystery"; he was a guy who built a helmet to help him steal a million dollars and retire, but there was a malfunction when he escaped while robbing the playing card company which resulted in his appearance changing. The only mystery, such as it was, was his actual name, and at least for a while DC said that "Jack Napier" would indeed be canon. All of that was canon until Killing Joke, and even KJ wasn't written to be canon initially until someone decided to leverage it to create Oracle.
1. Wintervention
  July 12, 2018
  @LegendInMyMind:disqus
  This is a pattern I'm noting in DC fans (as I start to distance myself from the comics and films due to their decline in quality since the heights of the Trilogy and the Scott Snyder/Capullo N52 run). They refuse to believe a character is allowed to change and evolve. Case in point, the uproar when the image of Batfleck with a gun in his hand hit the net. Suddenly 'purists' were claiming the "oh but when Bob Kane introduced him he used guns and murdered people", as if 75 years of character development and an undeniable, inarguable hatred of guns and a 'no-killing' rule never happened.
  Yes, when the Joker was introduced, he had an 'origin' story. But the character has evolved. As characters are allowed to. I remember when the Mr. Freeze special of the Batman Animated Series came out. That was *deep*. It took a campy character and made him tragic. It gave him depth. Then, you have the New52 version where they twisted it slightly and made it less about Nora and more about his obsession with the 'preservation power' of ice, linking it back to how he killed his mother by drowning her in an ice lake, because he wanted to remember her as she was and not as the permanently brain-damaged woman she became (the art is that issue is phenomenal by the way - Jason Fabok was born to draw Batman).
  I just don't understand why a significant majority of the DC fanbase (and hell, even the Marvel fandom is a culprit of this) cannot grasp the idea of character evolution. It's interesting that you mention Wolverine and how we discovered he actually had bone claws. I thought that was a brilliant addition to his mythos that really built on the 'savagery' aspect of him.
  Of course, there are certain rules of a character you cannot break. Case in point - Batman's 'no guns' rule.
  1. Wintervention
    July 12, 2018
    Oh don't get me wrong! I was agreeing with you. Worded it incorrectly. I am a huge proponent of the Joker having an 'unknown' background. Which is why Scott Snyder (who I hold to this day as the greatest Batman writer of the last two decades) did it so damn well in his legendary New52 run with Endgame and Death of the Family. There were scenes where Bruce was having an internal monologue about how he spent weeks trying to work out who the Joker was and what made him what he was, and he could /never/ work it out. The man was a mystery. He just... existed. You put it perfectly - he is the world's answer to Batman. The Yin and Yang.
    While I like that WB are trying to distance themselves from the fallout of the DCEU Snyderverse (pulling away from Aquaman and WW and letting them do their own thing/removing Snyder from all directorial duties of future films/replacing Ben Affleck), I also agree that giving an origin story to the Joker threatens the character's unique draw. He is the unexplainable villain. He is the one thing that Batman cannot reason with.
    As was written so perfectly in TDK: "Some men aren't looking for anything logical. They can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with. Some men... just want to watch the world burn."
  2. Kerk Lastnameless
    July 13, 2018
    That's one of the reasons I've come to hate Injustice.
2. NinjaGamer13
  July 12, 2018
  Having an origin for Joker doesn't make him less scary. It doesn't matter how he became who he is, his origin has no effect on his ability to instill fear.
  TKJ IS his origin story. It's pretty clear. When he said he remembers it different ways...that has no bearing on the origin we see, which is not told through his narration. The story we see is truth, even if he remembers it differently.
3. Mark
  July 12, 2018
  I'd say that, in the Atomic Age era (which term as related to comics I only heard in the past year), he was as humanized as any villain was, which is to say barely if at all. But at the same time, he wasn't this overblown "dark mirror of Batman" at the time, either... he was a very sane, murderous thief and extortionist who happened to look like a clown, and he probably stayed that way (caveat toning down pretty much everything after the CC was adopted) until at least The Laughing Fish, if not even later. And, to be honest, I really don't care for or about all of the extraneous psychobaggage they lade the character with in modern comics. It's as unnecessary as the recent "if he's happy he won't be Batman anymore" nonsense Tom King gave us.
Seb
July 12, 2018
While they have peaked my interest with casting Joaquin Phoenix as the Joker, I'll admit it... deep down, I feel like you have a great point about this whole thing.
1. NinjaGamer13
  July 12, 2018
  The Joker was Joker before Batman, so no, his story doesn't have to revolve around Batman, not at first.
Bruce
July 12, 2018
This is just getting worse and worse.
Vger64
July 12, 2018
Looking forward to this movie! Love the idea of Thomas Wayne in it. Just wondering about the age difference between The Joker and Bruce though. But hey, we had Jack Nicholson and Michael Keaton.
1. NinjaGamer13
  July 13, 2018
  The Joker would be over 60 in this universe by the time Bruce started his career as Batman.
  1. NinjaGamer13
    July 13, 2018
    Don't make me do more math :P
john
July 12, 2018
The Joker movie is going to be awesome, and so is Shazam!. I think those two DC Comics films will be the exact opposite sort of stories, but at the same time both will have depth and heart. i Ithink both will be great. I'm buying them movies anyway
Lunkman
July 12, 2018
Que the Jeffrey Dean Morgan casting rumors. The average moviegoer will not remember him from BvS, and if the movie is a hit- particularly with the loyal fanbase, then boom- there's universe connection/cannon.
1. BornAgainPCGamer
  July 13, 2018
  I should have read down the comments, i pretty much made the same leap above.

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