'Justice League' disappoints at the box office with DC Films' lowest opening yet

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November 19, 2017

Justice League had a very disappointing opening weekend at the box office.

Zack Snyder's big superhero team-up movie only made $93.8 million in its first weekend. That's the lowest opening of any DC Films movie yet. Man of Steel made $116 million, Batman v Superman made $166 million, Suicide Squad made $133 million, and Wonder Woman made $103 million.

Compared to its competition, Marvel's Thor: Ragnarok opened to $122 million just two weeks ago, and Marvel's first team-up movie, The Avengers, made a huge $207 million in its opening weekend.

Justice League is doing a little better overseas, and has made $278.8 million so far worldwide.

SOURCE: The Hollywood Reporter

Updated on 11/20 with the official box office number

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1,159 comments

DudeofSteel1Million
November 19, 2017
Not even the biggest fanboy on the planet could EVER defend such a disastrous opening.
Justice League is pretty much officially a flop. I never... NEVER thought in a million years that even a subpar JL movie couldn't even cross 100 million opening weekend.
WB should be ashamed of themselves.
1. Bartholomew Hunt
  November 19, 2017
  It's not that JL is a bad movie because it isn't. This is the culmination of MoS, BvS, and SS. People see DC and they get afraid.
  1. DudeofSteel1Million
    November 19, 2017
    It shouldn't be though because the goodwill of Wonder Woman should have carried over to JL.
    But the signs were flashing RED when WB withheld that review embargo until the very end and that big plump green splatter that appeared thereafter was the final straw to make audiences go "yep... Not watching."
    1. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
      November 19, 2017
      damage of BvS >>>> goodwill of Wonder Woman
      1. Dan
        November 19, 2017
        Yes
      2. BRUCEisGONE
        November 19, 2017
        There was no damage of BvS, it was a masterpiece.
      3. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        Remove yourself from this forum and don't come back until you've overcome your narcotic addiction.
      4. BRUCEisGONE
        November 19, 2017
        Bye bye troll
      5. Bruce Wayne
        November 20, 2017
        BvS is still the best DCEU movie to date.
      6. Bruce
        November 20, 2017
        You can understand that "BvS is still the best DCEU movie to date" and "BvS is a terrible movie" are both true, right?
      7. Pablo Alberto Escalante
        November 20, 2017
        jajjajaj marvoludo , the JL doesnt needs the money of american idiots ,
        the movie will reach 1 billion thanks another countries , the same case
        of pacific rimm , outside USA the movie duplicates its earnigs USA 96
        million , rest of the worl (thinking people ) 195 millions ¡¡¡ OHHH
        almost the budget of the movie in only 3 days cry marvel and rotten
        tomatoes CRY little kid cry
      8. Hunter Zolomon
        November 21, 2017
        You realize dumbass that WB care a great deal about its domestic gross because with a film like this that matters. Right now the best case scenario is just under 800 million final total what is fucking awful for JL (the fact a fucking Thor movie will out gross it is embarrassing), that's actually more or less means its flopped because JL cost 300 million to make plus 150-200 million marketing on top of that. Right now the likely amount it will make is anything from 600-750 million what isn't good at all.
        By the way using Pacific Rim is stupid because that was much cheaper, cheaper marketing and was something new. JL should be one of the biggest films this year considering its the fucking JL. It may look like its made its budget back but actually it hasn't because WB won't see any of that back. So actually grow up and learn how the fucking box office and movie budgets work.
      9. Thomas Anderson
        November 19, 2017
        To you perhaps, but many didn't like it and it left people with a poor impression of the DC cinematic universe as a whole.
      10. BRUCEisGONE
        November 20, 2017
        In general and the only people with that impression were simple people who don't like to use their brains.
      11. Pablo Alberto Escalante
        November 20, 2017
        yes , people brainless like marvel ¡¡¡
      12. Jason Klawon
        November 20, 2017
        Whedon worked for Marvel ya turd crapped out of Solomon Grundy's butt.
      13. Hunter Zolomon
        November 21, 2017
        Considering how fucking dumb BvS actually is i highly doubt that, BvS is the film teens like to watch to make themselves feel smarter.
      14. BRUCEisGONE
        November 22, 2017
        Well maybe you are dumb what about that? Many people consider BvS genius and a complete work of art! We love Zack's work. Whoever is interested please consider signing a for a release of a true version of the movie. Zack already liked the idea: https://www.change.org/p/wa...
      15. Shunsui
        November 20, 2017
        "There was no damage", and yet here we are.
      16. Oreole
        November 20, 2017
        lol.
      17. $33269436
        November 22, 2017
        You are spot on..
        B vs S all but ruined the franchise.
        Nolan’s trilogy looked and felt real. Everything since then in the DC Universe has been forced.
        Save WW and reboot everything else.
    2. Bartholomew Hunt
      November 19, 2017
      Who said the good will didn't carry over? Imagine WW had bombed. JL would've made $65M. MoS and especially BvS scarred people for life.
      1. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        BvS underperforming didn't stop Suicide Squad from making a mint despite its critical thrashing. It's definitely a combination of the previous DCEU sans WW souring audiences AND yet another critical thrashing/bad word of mouth.
        Had JL gotten reviews on par with WW or at the very least gotten reviews on par with Superman Returns (I know... can you believe it?), the movie would have definitely opened higher than 120 million.
      2. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        BvS got awful reviews and people were flocking to the theatres. Explain that.
      3. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        And yet the word of mouth was BAD enough to send that flock cowering away to yield a 69% drop.
        I just said that it was a combination, but not one thing. Had JL gotten great reviews like WW, how can you even think people wouldn't flock to the theaters ? BUT a combination of past souring movies AND the notion of another souring one is definitely a potent mix to drive moviegoers away.
      4. Bruce Wayne
        November 20, 2017
        So? Civil War had a 67% drop and still made bank.
      5. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 20, 2017
        Civil War had a much higher opening though.
      6. Gavin
        November 19, 2017
        BvS had amazing trailers, plus it didn't have a big superhero movie open two weeks beforehand. Justice League had terrible boring trailers, and audiences were already privy at how terrible Zack Snyder really is.
      7. Paul2k2
        November 20, 2017
        Didnt like the trailers, I pretty much saw all the best and main bits of the film before I saw it.
        They need to reign it in in future and keep the best bits for the cinema screen
      8. Bruce Wayne
        November 20, 2017
        Shhhh. Stop using logic on the haters.
      9. Oreole
        November 20, 2017
        The novelty factor was big reason for that and the proceeding film didn't taint the box office prospects that much.
      10. Fastguy77
        November 20, 2017
        Because it was Batman v Superman... What does JL have? Aquaman and Flash lol! Oh and Cyborg?? Hahah.
        No one gives a fuck about these characters. Smart move throwing them all into a movie right away.
      11. BRUCEisGONE
        November 19, 2017
        I imagine it's scary for stupid/simple people to use their brains. Rather watch some Marvel-like comedy where the story is being spooned to them.
      12. Wagner Von Schmit
        November 20, 2017
        Stupid/simple people would love BvS by your logic.
      13. BRUCEisGONE
        November 20, 2017
        You probably are one yourself
      14. Pablo Alberto Escalante
        November 20, 2017
        jajjajaj marvoludo , the JL doesnt needs the money of american idiots ,
        the movie will reach 1 billion thanks another countries , the same case
        of pacific rimm , outside USA the movie duplicates its earnigs USA 96
        million , rest of the worl (thinking people ) 195 millions ¡¡¡ OHHH
        almost the budget of the movie in only 3 days cry marvel and rotten
        tomatoes CRY
    3. DudeofSteel1Million
      November 19, 2017
      That's not true in the slightest - look at BvS for proof.
      Opening day - 82 million (2 million more than the first Avengers)
      End of the weekend - 23 million.
      The poisonous word of mouth deprived it of a 200 million + opening weekend as it had one of the worst Friday-to-Sunday drops in box office history.
      So yes, reception hurts it and JL is no exception.
      1. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        You're forgetting that BvS had much bigger numbers, so there was more to lose going forward. Generally, even horrible movies that open fairly low don't lose nearly as much traction as higher earning films on day-to-day basis because they don't have as much money to start with. Just because that crappy Ghostbusters remake didn't fall 69% in its second weekend ala BvS doesn't mean it had good word of mouth.
        Now I'm not saying JL has as BAD reception as BvS. Obviously it doesn't - both critically and audience-wise. I can attest to that in person as the general consensus during my BvS opening night showing was that of DEAD SILENCE and the general consensus during my JL showing contained much laughter, cheering and applauding .
        But it's far from the resounding near-universal love Wonder Woman received and thus will not demonstrate even HALF of that movie's legs going forward. And as far as the opening weekend is concerned, granted, still only an estimate, but the Sunday drop is not encouraging. Yes, it's better than BvS, but it's worse than Suicide Squad or Man of Steel and Wonder Woman.
      2. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        I never said BvS has no blame in JL underperforming though. I am merely stating that in spite of how BvS soured audiences, JL could have overcome those obstacles had it gotten glowing reviews. Since it didn't, that poor reception has hurt its opening weekend going forward.
        Time will tell if JL can huff it to the finish line, but chances are it won't make it past The Amazing Spider-Man 2. The word of mouth is BETTER than BvS, but by your own reckoning, that's hardly saying much since most hated BvS to begin with.
        Therefore, while the price of BvS souring audiences definitely had an impact of how JL is doing right now, it does not hold the sole blame. That's what I've been saying this whole time. There is more than one factor to account for JL underperforming.
      3. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        And that's just it. They rushed it out. I love BvS, but obviously I'm not blind that his vision doesn't jive with mainstream audiences and so he should have been let go after BvS. But I don't put sole blame on him either as WB were the ones who hired him, kept him on and put him on a leash in the areas where he would have succeeded. For instance, nobody would have been complaining about BvS having fights that were "way too short" if WB didn't leash him after the criticisms over MOS's excessive action.
        And as for JL, they rushed it out on both ends of the spectrum - both with keeping Snyder at the helm at first and then later when he walked out. If they were going to keep that November 2017 release, then at that point, it's best to just FINISH Zack's vision, however divisive it may be, get it out of the way and then move on, but at least let him have that last chance even if chances dictate he'd fail at the very least out of respect for his horrendous situation.
        But no. It was just them pouncing on the very thing they've wanted for years, but didn't have the guts to do themselves for the risk of getting egg on their face by admitting they effed up by keeping Snyder on.
        And as I said before, yes, JL's lack of momentum/anticipation owes much to BvS for souring audiences, BUT it is not the sole reason for its failure. The BUZZ surrounding JL has been nothing but trouble. The numerous reshoots and retoolings pissing off the actual DCEU fans and simply not being enough for those already soured, ending up with a rushed end product hybrid that neither parties could ever fully get behind.
        Then to top it off, there's that infamous, but expected "ROTTEN" score that the studio tried to hide because they knew they had another turd coming and it backfired because it only FED into the negative press even more. And then when it finally came to light, plenty of people who would have otherwise pushed JL beyond its 120 million initial projection said 'nope... I'm out" thanks to the critical reception and there you have a piss poor opening weekend for all your troubles.
      4. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        True. JL obviously always had an uphill battle to climb because of the BvS fallout, but it was certainly possible for people to forget if the movie was up to snuff. And that's why I'm saying that the critical reviews being below par was simply the final straw that broke the camel's back. I'm sure, had BvS been a success with audiences JL would have most certainly opened above 200 million no problem, but even with BvS fallout, if JL was fresh on the tomatometer, it would have still leaped over those once conservative 120-130 million estimates without much trouble.
        As for Snyder, that's where I have to disagree.
        The executives clearly don't know these characters. That is a definite fact, I agree. They have no respect for them and that's why it falls to the filmmakers they hire to be the ones to shepherd these properties for the fans.
        While I'm not blind that his decisions have obviously NOT worked for mainstream audiences and I can't speak for how other comic book fans feel, I don't believe Snyder doesn't understand these characters more than people give him credit for. He's not a superfan - his past statements have proven that - but I do believe he's a fan and as a huge DC fan myself who has several shelves devoted to DC Comics storage, he hasn't made horribly offensive decisions that have tarnished these characters in my eyes.
        Does that mean his vision worked? No, of course not. I liked it, plenty of others didn't.
        Was it the best idea to go with? No, that's pretty clear from the reception it's gotten.
        HOWEVER.... Is it all his fault for it?
        Most certainly not.
        As I said before, WB has created more bad than good when they try to "fix" problems. For example, had WB left Snyder alone, we wouldn't have even gotten BvS in the first place. They mandated him to put Batman in there because they were worried MOS2 might not be able to hold audiences attention. This whole "rushed" universe thing, while Snyder may have had the initial idea, it was mandated by WB to run with it in the first place. Just like BvS' final cut.
        I mean, obviously the Ultimate Edition wouldn't have magically gotten a "fresh" rating if they actually released it, but it was filled enough to be considered a "complete" movie and would have softened some of the critical thrashing even just a little bit that it would have done about as well as the theatrical cut ended up doing ANYWAYS, which would essentially mean WB's mandate to shorten it to allow for more runtimes was a pointless and fruitless decision.
        This among others is why, even though I agree that Zack holds a lot of blame for his vision, he is not the sole perpetrator and I believe that even though MOS was quite divisive, Snyder's untampered with vision might have yielded more "mixed" movies like that as opposed to disasters like BvS.
        That and Snyder didn't write, direct or have much to do with Suicide Squad and that movie was hated even MORE than BvS - and who is to blame for that? Well, David Ayer certainly deserves a lot of fingers pointed at him, but was he the one who handed his film over to be edited by a friggin Trailer editing company? Nope. That falls on WB's shoulders.
      5. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        That's what they say. I wish I could find the article, but I remember reading back after the 2013 comic con revelation that Snyder basically outright admitted that he was pressured by the studio to include Batman. It kinda came around the same time David Goyer came out and said "you do Batman and Superman when you've exhausted all other possibilities" or something to that extent. If only I have saved it during that time on IMDB. Oh, well.
        As for Snyder making it a "VS" film, they were capitalizing on the characters' popularity outside of the comics in terms of always pitting the heroes against one another. Plus a "Vs." film has that other novelty value of seeing the two fight each other which fanboys wet themselves over, so there's that.
        I disagree that you have to alter them because pretty much every time Batman and Superman have met each other post-crisis, they've always come into conflict. Maybe not in a way that resulted in a Dark Knight Returns brawl, but definitely in a way where they didn't like each other and traded a few brief blows with one another.
        In John Byrne's Man of Steel run, the first time he met Batman, he tried to arrest him and Batman threatened the life of an "innocent man" (himself) would be taken if Superman caught him. In World's Finest from the animated series, both heroes knocked each other around during their first meeting due to a mutual misunderstanding. And in the New 52 JL, Superman and Batman briefly battled it out because Superman thought Batman was working with the enemy.
        So the foundation was there. Snyder just took it to the next level.
      6. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        I disagree that they changed Superman. For Batman, yes, they changed him, but as a die-hard Superman fan, I'm accustomed to his "darker" storylines where he's not seen in a ever so positive light. In most of his origin stories especially, that's the time where he's dogged by the government and people fear and distrust him. It's a mixture of Earth One, Birthright, Secret Origin, New 52, John Byrne's Man of Steel, Superman: Secret Identity, and of course The Death/Reign of Superman comics where you even have a cult that ends up fighting amongst themselves over the "true Superman" while worshipping him as a deity. It's all there to be capitalized on as it's the type of stuff Superman generally has to overcome in order to BE the symbol of hope, and that's why, as a fan, I've loved this take because it hasn't been done before in the movies. I like seeing Superman be represented as both optimistic and friendly, but also revered and given that sense of awe, wonder and mystery where he would meet all ends of the spectrum from positive to negative. It's what FEEDS into why his conflict with Lex is so interesting in the comics because Lex's suspicions are quite just and ARE shared by normal people until AFTER Superman proves himself to be benevolent.
        As for Batman, I was okay with the changes because it gave him a really good redemption arc. Instead of doing his origin where he would have to go on a journey to become the true Batman we all know and love, they instead opted out of doing the origin by giving Batman a redemption arc so that he still would have a journey to becoming the Batman we're familiar with. I get it - a lot of people hated it. I've heard it a million times. I know I'm in the extreme minority, but that's just how I feel.
        In hindsight, it probably wasn't a good idea to do because it's clear people WANT the characters to be who they know them to be and it's best to be as faithful as possible to the source material as you risk stepping on everyone's toes. And for that, that's where Zack Snyder gets the full brunt of the blame for his decisions.
        However, as a fan of these characters and seeing them go through numerous iterations over the years, it does make one wonder just how far you can go and why some are okay areas to explore and why some aren't. Like why is it okay for them to turn the heroic Luke Skywalker into a loser that abandons his friends and family in their time of need to sulk and brood over his failings for Star Wars and people eat it up? As a fan of Star Wars, I certainly wasn't okay with that (and apparently neither was Mark Hamill), but plenty of others were. And as far as the superheroes are concerned, Tim Burton's Batman for instance straight up murdered plenty of people, yet seems to be more forgiving than Batfleck, just like every onscreen iteration of Superman has killed someone on different occasions (Christopher Reeve included) and yet Man of Steel is the only one people remember most vividly for it. I personally was ten times more offended with the crap they pulled in Smallville where every other episode, Clark was "accidentally" killing off a meteor freak and then there were those instances where his kills weren't accidents, and he was never held accountable for them, but that's just me.
      7. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 20, 2017
        I disagree. It depends on the story. There are plenty of dour Superman comics without much of a sense of hope or optimism. To call to mind, "For Tomorrow" is one of them, especially the first volume (which MOS took a lot of inspiration from, namely the character of Father Leone).
        As for the character changing, I disagree. For instance, Superman snapping Zod's neck is a big callback to him killing Zod, Zaora and Quex-Ul for wiping out a pocket universe version of Earth. But the difference is that Superman in the comics actually acted as judge, jury and executioner because he felt he was the last person who could carry out the kind of justice the mass murderers deserved and executed them AFTER they were defeated. I loved the way MOS did it because it presented Superman with a no-win scenario and essentially proved that when in a no-win situation, Superman will ALWAYS act on behalf of those that cannot defend themselves. It very much is in tune with who Superman is as a person and I have nothing but admiration for that. Same with him being ostracized from mankind and being a loner. That's pretty much been a part of his origin story since Byrne's Man of Steel. It makes the character's upbringing relatable and understandable while also giving him the classic "hero's journey" in that he has to become the symbol of hope through trial and error as opposed to just being it from the getgo.
        But even if he did change, CHANGE is not necessarily a bad thing. If change wasn't accepted, Superman would still be jumping 1/8th of a mile and throwing criminals out windows to their deaths while chuckling about it. Superman evolved to be who he is today and even when he had most of his characteristics down by the Silver Age, he still continued to evolve more so over time, otherwise he'd be able to tow galaxies on his back and launch mini-Supermen out his fingers.
        The way I look at MOS Superman is basically how the Smallville version of Clark SHOULD have been. Both versions share many of the same traits - they also share much of the tonality with one another. But the difference is that MOS presented a Clark who already had it within him to be a good person and take up the duties and responsibilities of being a hero rather than have him told by a million people what to do and have him essentially dragged kicking and screaming to be who he was meant to be.
        As for Batman needing redemption, I disagree again that it "ruins" him. I think if anything, what Snyder did with BvS is flip The Dark Knight Returns storyline on its back and hold it up to a mirror. Now instead of Superman being the one who is acting out of character and in need of a good kick in the ass to set him straight, it's BATMAN who has lost his way. And in doing so, it's Superman who ends up setting him straight, but not by "beating the crap" out of him to teach him humility, but by winning him over in a moral victory that snaps Bruce out of his daze and gets him back on track. It was a great way to do TDKR without having Superman be a government stooge and without having Batman as the "Batgod" who can do no wrong.
        But again, this is all subjective. Obviously, we've both been over this debate a million times and nothing I say will change your mind just like nothing you say will change mine. I'm just saying that from my POV, the characters weren't ruined, but I am not a "blind" fanboy (Fanboy, yes. Blind, no) who can't see that most people leaned more towards how you saw these characters and felt betrayed by their presentation.
        It didn't work. It shouldn't have been done. But now that it's pretty much all over as JL flopped and there was a clear major course correction, one can still appreciate what they TRIED to do and hope that next time, they can find a way to not alienate the fans.
      8. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 20, 2017
        I disagree about the neck-snapping. I think the presentation works BECAUSE of how visceral it is. It's a line we don't see Superman crossing generally, but by putting him in that precarious no-win scenario, it gives us a very personal moment and a look into Superman's psyche that showcases he really is out to do the greater good, even if that means making spur of the moment decisions. Even in the comics, when Superman is pushed to his limit, we see that he will opt to kill his opponents if it means serving the greater good.
        I disagree about the kryptonite too. Sure, it's not as visceral because we can't relate as much to the imagery of a radioactive rock killing people off vs. a neck snap, BUT it's more visceral because of the situation. Superman isn't killing them quickly as a last resort effort - he's KILLING them slowly and painfully to punish them for their crimes. To me, that's much more of a visceral image than a spur-of-the moment decision because it's a full on decision rather than a last resort. Superman COULD have imprisoned them. But instead he executed them because he was afraid their threats to destroy HIS world would be a reality. Hell, I think that if THAT had been done in live action, it would have generated an even greater division amongst the fans because that's PREMEDITATIVE MURDER vs. "JUSTIFIABLE HOMICIDE."
        I disagree that Superman wasn't out of character in TDKR. I found him to be VERY out of character because I do think he compromised his principles in order to keep WORKING as a superhero, not necessarily for the betterment of humanity. Bruce himself said it in TDKR - "YOU SOLD US OUT, CLARK!" Superman zapped off Green Arrow's arm and KILLS people for the US government. All under the guise of a mysterious figure that the government keeps hidden to the point of hacking into broadcasts at the mere mention of his name. That's not a "symbol of hope" at work.
        He didn't enter into that final battle with Batman to take him in - he entered into it to WIPE HIM OUT. Granted, he obviously didn't want to do it, but that's what he was sent there to do. And clearly in the story, Superman isn't above killing people - he kills the soviets left and right for the US government. That, to me, is far more out of character than him snapping Zod's neck to protect innocent people. And it's all done to meet the demands of Frank Miller, who admittedly does not care for Superman and just wanted to make Batman cooler.
        As for the rest of the Superman comics, it really does depend on what the writer is trying to do with the character. Generally, he is more upbeat, but the dichotomy of just how upbeat he is varies, and is usually played up when he's in a team-dynamic. If you'll notice, he's twice as optimistic in the Superman/Batman comics than he is in his solo issues because he's exaggerated so that they can play up the mirrored dynamic between the two characters. But Superman gets pissed; Superman is dragged through the mud, Superman has had stories that were far more dour and depressing than Man of Steel could ever hope to be. Not just in the world surrounding him, but Superman himself is effected. Some work, some don't, but depending on the execution of the idea, I ALWAYS welcome different takes on the character because doing the same thing over and over again tends to get stale.
        I have found plenty of Superman comics that were devoid of that sense of hope you're describing. Hell, the New 52 was derided for LACKING that classic Superman feeling. If anything, I think that's probably where a lot of the problems the DCEU has falls upon. It's not that Zack Snyder doesn't understand the characters - it's that he based them off their darker halves during a particular time in comics where many fans were NOT happy with the characters' portrayals. Superman being a notable example, hence why the REBIRTH comics worked quickly to undo New 52 Superman and even kill him off for good. I'd even reckon that had the REBIRTH comics been happening during the forging of the DCEU, we probably would have gotten a more classic version of Superman.
        Finally on the Batman issue, I find it to be okay because he's not really "murdering" people per-say. I mean, everyone brings up the "if Batman turned into a killer, why's the Joker still alive" and I think it's more along the lines of he just gave up CARING about collateral damage moreso than actually murdering people. He's definitely killing them, but if a criminal was minding his own business and didn't put up a fight, the BvS Batman seems like he'd just tie him up as opposed to blow him up just because he can.
        That's why what he did never really trickled over to what you're mentioning about Gordon supporting a killer vigilante. It didn't seem like he was doing it for more than a few weeks tops (in the movie, Alfred asks "NEW" rules?" as opposed to "you've been doing this for a while and I don't support it."
        As for Batman's gadgetry, he's always had lethal gadgets if you think about it. He says "No guns" and yet his batmobile is armed to the teeth with automatic weapons and gunpower in almost all his iterations - and it's not limited to "rubber bullets" either. For instance, when Catwoman blows up Bane in TDKR (movie), she says "I don't feel as strongly about [no guns] as you do" while driving Batman's motorcycle with a giant gun mounted on it.
        Now I will say this; you're right. I care more about Superman than I do Batman and even though he's my second favorite superhero, I would be less inclined to piss and moan if they "ruined" Batman vs if they "ruined" Superman, but I still am an avid enough Batman reader to keep up a conversation with a fellow comic book nerd and nothing he did in BvS bothered me any more than watching Tim Burton's Batman throw people off buildings and blow criminals up. I definitely don't think he should do it often as I think his no-kill rule is important, but I found his redemption arc in BvS to be perfectly justifiable given the circumstances.
        Even in the comics, when Jason Todd was murdered by the Joker, Batman sought the Joker out to MURDER HIM in retaliation for what he did. Superman was the one who was trying to keep him calm - and even when Batman got close to the Joker and crashed his helicopter, he was hoping he had killed him (even though he obviously failed). Then it took him a while to snap out of his daze later on as he distanced himself from his fellow comrades (Nightwing), began to become more brutal and nasty to criminals and it took the emergence of the third Robin (Tim Drake) to finally get through to him.
      9. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 20, 2017
        Man of Steel could have used a bit more levity, true, but I think it definitely had enough of Superman expressing different emotions and a narrative that pertained to both sides of the spectrum that it was enough for people to care for him. They just didn't. I can't speak for people I don't know as to why, but it was enough for me to empathize. My one gripe is that the movie didn't earn its "happy" ending and that it should have been more dour in order to address the aftermath of the destruction and Superman's decision to kill.
        As for Superman killing the criminals, it was still pretty visceral and yes, they were in agony for about as much as a comic book at the time could show. If that was rendered in film, even if not to graphic extent, to me, it's still way more visceral and I believe would have garnered an even more extreme reaction from audiences and critics. http://i.imgur.com/opXxn9y.jpg I mean, seeing someone BEG Superman to spare them and he doesn't listen is about as visceral as it gets.
        As for him killing people in TDKReturns:
        https://www.youtube.com/wat...
        The fact that he even listened to the government at all instead of standing beside his fellow superheroes in their time of need is grossly out of character. Superman isn't the type to betray his comrades like that. Just like he's not the type to perform covert missions for the US Government under shade and cover without actually helping or inspiring anyone. He's literally one step away from wearing a mask at that point.
        Again, that's one of the reasons I like what Zack Snyder has done for Superman. In both Man of Steel and BvS, he pretty much presented TWO scenarios of what is practically an act of flipping the bird to Frank Miller over what he did to Superman. One was at the end of Man of Steel where Superman crashed the drone and spoke to General Swanwick saying, "Look, I'm here to help. But it has to be on my own terms" - AKA "I ain't your stooge and I'm not just going to be a pawn for the government" ala Frank Miller. And the second was, as I said above, the inversion of TDKReturns where it isn't Superman who is the one manipulated to go after Batman because he's the government's lapdog errand boy, but it's Batman, by way of his demoralized and self-doubting state who goes after Superman.
        BTW, I feel I must add, since it's a rarity, that I appreciate the civility of the convo. I highly disagree with many of your statements, but I don't call you names or insult you just because we don't see eye-to-eye on these characters and I expect the same respect in return. It seems thus far you've given that and that's quite admirable. It makes the convo a debate as opposed to an argument or a "who can get the best zinger in".
      10. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 21, 2017
        I disagree that the movie didn't make people care. I think it did do a good job of making on care about him beyond the fact that he's Superman. It's showcased all throughout the movie regarding his struggles, his hopes, his journey of self discovery that is beyond the conventional "it's Superman. Care about him".
        I don't think it should be portrayed as a victorious moment for Superman being forced to kill on any occasion. Even though the situation differed, MOS very much showcased Superman's grief in a similar vein to how the comics portrayed it. In many ways, having Superman kill Zod like that harkens back to The Dark Knight's climax, albeit with a different outcome. Batman went to so much trouble NOT to kill his enemies and yet when he was in a precarious no-win situation, he tackled Harvey Dent over the ledge to save the life of an innocent child and ended up killing him. We don't blame Batman for what he did - he had no choice. But he still killed someone when push came to shove (literally). It wasn't as brutal as what Superman did and you could make the argument that he didn't intend to actually end Harvey's life when he tackled him. But his actions still took the life of another man.
        But the point is that it was never an easy thing. Doomsday is a little different because, even though he's definitely a sentient being, he's still kinda mindless and it's less akin to Superman killing a person vs. putting down a monster.
        As for Pa Kent, I have mixed feelings on that one. I used to hate it just like you do now, but I've grown to appreciate it for what it was trying to accomplish. Gut reaction is usually "Superman should NEVER let his father die, no matter what", but more over is the kind of trust he put in his father to obey him in his last moments. It's a redemption to what he said earlier ("You're not my dad"). Even Mark Waid, who was furious over the movie showcasing Superman kill Zod applauded the way they handled Pa Kent's death and even went as far to say "I wish I wrote it."
        The movie extended action sequences from the comic a bit to make it more exciting, but the comic definitely portrays Superman wiping out soviet soldiers.
        http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-4...
        I agree with your sentiment about the comics. They get other chances and whatnot - which is why whenever someone says "all you have to do is follow the comics! How is that so hard" whenever they complain about a movie adaptation, it always yields a "Which ones?!" kinda response from me because of exactly what you're saying. There are some really great comics for these characters, but also plenty of bad ones, and movies have a much larger impact because you can't just "undo" a multimillion dollar film the same way if you screw up. In many ways, that's probably what a lot of the problems from Snyder's films stem from. I do believe him to be a comic book fan as I exclaimed earlier and I do believe he cares about these characters. He just chose the wrong elements that people don't identify with or maybe like. However, I do find the irony in how the general public responded to a "darker" Superman - As a fan of the character, I've put up with years and years of complaints on how he's too "wholesome", has "no conflict," is "boring," and "overpowered." Then when they give us a Superman that's more akin to how he is in the comics when he's just starting out, the whiners suddenly side with the fans who were upset over seeing that part of Superman exemplified.
        You can't please anyone apparently.
        As for Batman's characterization, I like that he was different from his TDKReturns portrayal because this isn't the same story. It's a similar event, but it's not the same. By giving Batman a redemption arc, it gives the character somewhere to go from while also capitalizing on his response to tragedy and hopelessness in a world where he's not accustomed to superpowered "gods" running about.
        Superman being a gov't lapdog does NOT fit in with the "truth, justice and the American way" statement because, although Superman is definitely proving his singular loyalty to America, he is not standing for "TRUTH" (truth is not hiding in the shadows as a secret weapon for the government, carrying out "dirty" missions. There's a reason Superman has never gotten into politics and this is one of them - to be seen as ALL AROUND AMERICAN deprives him of being a global figure). He is not standing for JUSTICE (breaking his "no kill" rule on a constant day-to-day basis just because the American president is ordering him to do the dirty work). And he is most certainly not standing for the AMERICAN WAY (because American Way does not translate into "America ONLY! F#%#% all ya'll who aren't" - it's the IDEAL of America that Superman stands for which is "all men are created equal, freedom of tyranny/persecution, etc."). So to me, it's definitely out of character. Far more out of character than anything Zack Snyder has ever cooked up in my opinion.
        Keep up the civility, man. I appreciate it. We may not agree, but we can still be fans.
      11. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 21, 2017
        We didn't get to see Superman really enjoy his powers because he never really does in any of his origin stories. It's not about him enjoying being Superman as of right now; it's about him BECOMING Superman. And I feel they did enough for us to still see both his internal struggles as well as him being happy. For instance, the scene on the scout ship where he smiles at the very mention of his birth name. Or when he comes home to the Kent farm and giddily tells Ma Kent how he finally knows the answers to the questions he's had all his life. Or even when the military captured him and he not only had some playful banter with Lois, but also took a little pleasure in catching the military off guard by showing them what he can do. I disagree that they presented a narrow emotional window for Superman - I think it's more along the lines of it wasn't what people were used to seeing. Yes, you have your "You're special, Clark" monologues, but they were about as plentiful as Superman: The Movie.
        As for the "destruction porn," it has more to do with the quantity of it and tone. I mean, let's face it - the climax of the Avengers was not presented as a huge terrible event - and even when we saw glimpses of that terror, people were too caught up in the FUN of seeing The Avengers fight together than they were worrying about the people. But Man of Steel actually showed people the gravity of the situation. It was a BIG deal. This is how these superhero battles would look like in our real world - 9/11 x 1000. It wouldn't be fun... But it certainly is intense enough that we want Superman to stop it.
        I honestly don't think that MOS nor BvS' problem stems from these tonal issues. They came out at a time post Avengers when people were over seeing these darker takes and wanted to enjoy the superheroes being superheroes. But beforehand, "darker" takes were all the rage; even prior to when they hit it big with The Dark Knight. Everyone was getting "darkened" up. Hell, even Superman Returns, the so called loose sequel to the Donner film contained Superman brooding for half the film and even had a sequence where he flew off in tears because Lois said she didn't love him anymore. Now I know that it seems ridiculous to compare and the reaction is understandably welcoming laughs and scoffs, but just because a certain vision doesn't jive with current audience expectations doesn't necessarily mean it's bad or wrong by default - lots of classics we see today were HATED or at least not well-liked back in their day. Empire Strikes Back was criticized for being "too dark" and not a satisfying feel-good sequel to Star Wars and yet it's regarded as a masterpiece now. Obviously neither BvS nor MOS is of that level, but it just speaks volumes in regards to how timing is really a crucial thing to consider and just because it doesn't work NOW doesn't mean it wouldn't work before or after. I don't think MOS or BvS will ever be "beloved" classics. I'm not blind. They'll always be divisive movies. But I do think there will come a time when maybe people get a second glance once all the hoopla dies out and maybe even after the DCEU goes the way of the dodo.
        That's exactly my point for Superman II and Superman in general. You play it off one way and people excuse it, but you play it off another and suddenly it becomes a problem even if it's the EXACT same issue. I applaud MOS for dealing with the scene in a serious manner and addressing the idea of Superman killing and what toll that must take on him. And honestly, I don't know if Superman nonchalantly killing Zod would work nowadays either because back then, it was a simpler time where audiences were not as big on comic books and didn't have as high expectations for these comic book movies to be anything other than silly time fillers. For instance, if Superman started throwing cellophane S shields off his chest and shooting finger beams out his hands, I think plenty of people would at least scratch their heads and the fans would riot.
        See, here's the thing: to not think Superman should ever be depicted a certain way, even if that way is not necessarily a bad thing is extremely limiting in regards to the type of stories you can tell. That's why MOS always kinda had an uphill battle because audiences are used to seeing him in a certain light and when that curtain drops to reveal a very different take, then they come away confused, thinking he was "changed" even if he wasn't really. I mean, imagine if Tim Burton was too afraid to show a "darker" Batman just because the last time audiences saw him, he was running on docks stating "some days, you just can't get rid of a bomb" and using bat-shark repellent. At the very least, I think MOS/BvS introduced to the audience the possibility that this character CAN be darker and even though JL course corrected, he can't necessarily go back completely to being a cheeseball (which, ironically, he never quite was in the Reeve films to begin with). As for Harvey Dent, it was different, yes, but the outcome is still the same. Batman tackled him over the ledge and Harvey Dent DIED because of his actions. Regardless of whether or not he intended to kill him, he still made that split decision without concern for the consequences because he had no other alternative. And that showcases that Batman will do what he needs to in order to protect the lives of innocent people. It's not as brutal or finite as an example as Superman snapping Zod's neck, but the principles are the same.
        I know Mark Waid hated Man of Steel, but just because HE hated it doesn't mean I agree with him. In the same vein, there were many other comic book writers and artists who were split on how they felt about MOS. Some viewed it as a betrayal of the character while others thought of it as a celebration of his best traits and stories. I mean, what makes Mark Waid more inclined to "know" Superman better than someone like Dan Jurgens? He's written just as many, if not more Superman stories and he really liked MOS. As for "tornadocide," while gut reaction is again to think you'd save your father and damn the consequences, it has more to do with the maturity of the decision to TRUST rather than to save. One of the many interesting things I noticed about the scene that made me rethink its context is PARENTS' reaction to it. My gut reaction was same as yours - I would NEVER let my dad die if I could do something to stop it. But my father's opinion was more nuanced, thinking that if we were ever in such a situation, he would feel hurt and somewhat betrayed if I didn't listen to him and he knew what he was doing was for my benefit alongside many others. It's a mature thing that steps outside the simplistic "black and white" viewpoint Superman generally tends to have for him to consider the consequences of his actions before jumping headfirst into it. If anything, it teaches him that you CAN'T just save people without "thinking".
        And as to a less "nuanced" reason why I grew to appreciate the decision... I just thought it was preferable to Smallville. I mean, I know, that seems bizarre to judge it on that merit, but I was horrified that Clark could spew lines like "I killed my own father" and nobody batted an eyelash, but suddenly when MOS did something similar (but much BETTER), it became a problem. I HATED seeing Clark on three separate occasions be responsible for Pa Kent dying and it made him look like an idiot as well as unheroic as it gets.
        Might want to re-read TDKReturns. I've re-read it recently, so it's still fresh on my mind and make no mistake; Superman KILLED the soviets. It's not stylized violence. He killed them.
        That's just my point though; if we NEVER accepted change and the notion of different takes, we'd still have a flightless "killer" Superman. Comics are allowed more freedom to change and retcon because they're more inconsequential, but if movies aren't allowed to be held to a similar standard (not to the same extent, but at least free to be different), then we get the same boring stuff and these characters would be long forgotten. I mean, even when it comes to simple things - like seeing the crystal technology for the kryptonians in the films? That is now a widespread accepted version of Kryptonian technology now, even within the comics lore. But imagine if they never took that chance and someone said to Donner "nu uh... Krypton is a green and lush planet... Not a cold wasteland of ice and crystals". We might have gotten a very different Superman movie. It may seem small, but "devil's in the details" and from small, you get bigger and bigger.
        I agree that I hate the criticisms of Superman being "boring". But that's why, prior to MOS, I would always point to the comics as the example of the character being so much more nuanced than most are led to believe. So when MOS captured that nuance for the most part, then of course the fan in me would be delighted that I now have a great example for mainstream audiences to see that Superman is far more than a "boring" character. I agree that Superman shouldn't be all "morally gray", but I don't think MOS even hinted at that being a possibility more so than the Superman we know at a younger, less experienced stage in his life being thrust into OUR cynical world and him dealing with the repercussions of TRYING to be "a guy trying to do the right thing" in a place and time where nobody does anything altruistic without some hidden agenda. IF anything, to me, that just makes him look 10x more heroic.
        Lastly, the thing you have to remember is that Frank Miller is an admitted flaming liberal (at least at the time he wrote TDKR). He HATED Ronald Reagan with a passion and making Superman as his lapdog doing all the wrong things in the name of American policy was not painting him in an altruistic light. That's why the Captain America example doesn't fit within this because back then, when every superhero worth their spit was going over to Germany to punch out Hitler, it was for noble and maybe even somewhat naive purposes, not agendas against our government or something. Superman was not fighting against "evil" so much as he was PART of a different evil. Batman is the one representing the "Good" side and his actions were enough of an embarrassment to the government that Reagan ordered Superman to take him down. That's why it's an insult to the character; because it was not written that way to "Be with the times" or present him in simply a different light, but still have him be a "good" guy. It was to capitalize on Frank Miller's admitted disdain for the character while serving at the forefront of a political commentary on America that Superman should NEVER be a part of. Even Zack Snyder knew that much to obey.
      12. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 22, 2017
        I'm referring to a mixture of them as Man of Steel takes inspiration from pretty much all of them, even if it's just little details. But I'd say a good portion of MOS' plot is taken directly from EARTH ONE, down to the details of the threatening broadcast from Zod (and Tyrell - stupid name for a villain BTW) and the heavy gravity beam weighing him down during the climax (Red sun beam in Earth One) and the origin story beats shift between Secret Origin, Birthright and the New 52.
        I know the films aren't beholden to the source material, which is why I love how MOS takes bits and pieces from all of Superman's origins and mixes them together to create a great hybrid.
        Everyone had a different experience when watching MOS. For what it's worth, when the movie first came out, the narrative of reactions was a lot more positive than negative. Over time, people started to trash the movie more and more, but aside from the critics, most people were fairly positive about it when it first came out. It would explain why, aside from Wonder Woman, Man of Steel is the ONLY DCEU film to get an A- Cinemascore. I understand that everyone has a different personal perspective on MOS, but from mine, I didn't feel it was a narrow emotional spectrum. I think we got to see the joy of the character just as we got to see his pain and struggles. Even TINY touches of lightness like Clark being appreciative of the boatman "saving" his life by knocking him over before he was hit by the crab basket adds a lot to the film in addition to the bigger moments like Clark enjoying the hell out of flying or beaming with joy and optimism when he returned home to Ma Kent after finding out his heritage.
        People crap on TDKR (unfairly I might add) so much that the IMDB, metacritic and RT scores are almost blatantly ignored, but that's beside the point. I'm not saying darker and serious films don't connect. I was saying that people have gotten more tired of the superhero genre being represented by that tone post-Avengers. Logan being a key exception, but maybe more so with how it isn't your standard super hero movie (which I loved). BvS you have more of a point to as being quite devoid of much levity, but I think MOS is full of it. Just not laugh-out-loud comedy or quips, but it's all in there. Even stupid jokes like "I think he's kinda hot".
        I agree that STM is extremely well made (Superman II, not so much) and still stands the test of time despite its silliness. I think MOS and BvS stand out because they both dared to take these beloved characters to the depths and utilize their stories and environments to BUILD THEM up to be who we all know and love beyond just their origin stories. Obviously, this doesn't register with many people who want the journey to kinda be over past the origin film, but I applaud the films for taking it beyond that to present an underlying arc that would reach its pinnacle at the end. For me, as a fan, it's the inverse of what I hated about Smallville in its handling in that ALL of Clark's trials and tribulations were to be taken care of BEFORE he donned the tights and cape and the end of his journey WAS when he wore the suit. I hated that. I hated the execution of it, I hated the writing of it, I hated just about everything about it (I know it might seem odd that I keep ragging on SV, but it was the freshest in my mind as the DCEU began because that was the last modern take on Superman before MOS). Even to a lesser extent, STM handled it in a similar vein where Clark did all he needed to do before donning the tights through Jor-El's teachings and wearing the suit was practically his "college graduation." But MOS/BvS gave us a Superman's whose journey didn't end with the suit, but only began. I can't speak for everyone - not you, not the audience who hated it - but I can speak for ME and how I felt watching it. And that's a key component as to why it stood out to me.
      13. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 23, 2017
        "Not my recollection, frankly. I was on all the boards and comment sections arguing about that film. I actually defended it and played down the criticism, which was very harsh at the time. I have my own criticism of MoS, always have, but it's never been THAT harsh." -
        Oh, don't get me wrong - I was there too. Plenty hated on "tornadocide" and Superman snapping Zod's neck. I was defending MOS with the same vigor AFTER the movie was released as I was defending it BEFORE (remember those "A limey brit shouldn't be playing an american icon" complaints?). But it was still much much less in comparison to BvS - and most of the general audience liked it, hence the A- cinemascore and why MOS didn't drop from being an 8/10 movie on IMDB until the blu-ray release.
        "But that was a battleground among comics fans and superhero film genre fans alike. The destruction porn criticisms, the neck snapping, the tornadocide, etc., all drew immediate and intense reactions from both sides. So I would not at all say that it was initially more positive than negative. And given the way people obsess over RT scores, the image of a rotten tomato beside Man of Steel on its page spurred a ton of intense debate almost immediately. That was practically the beginning of the cinematic Marvel vs DC fan-war that's so well documented..." -
        I'd still say it was more positive than negative in the fanboy community and it's especially because plenty of nolanites trickled into the arguments in defense of their "boy" because his name was plastered all over the ads even if he didn't actually do much.
        I mean, I remember the FREAKOUTS over the RT score and all, but there was still enough fans on the positive side to feel GOOD about liking the movie rather than shrinking into the corner and pounded into submission for DARING to say "I liked it." That's what living in a world being one of the few people liking BvS was akin to. MOS I felt a much greater sense of "Yeah! F#%# the haters!"
        "People crap on everything popular. The ratings aren't ignored, though, because the ratings are the ratings. People contributed to them. They are a measuring stick of the film's reception. And TDKR has some of the best numbers in the genre, 2nd best to TDK in many regards. Vocal dissension isn't evidence of unpopularity. Quite the contrary, actually, because the narrative is always "TDKR is SOOO overrated, I have no idea why anyone likes that movie". People crap on the Avengers just as much, for example, depending on where you go on the internet. Civil War too." -
        I'm just saying that the narrative has changed quite a bit since TDKR was released. Plenty of people were saying it was BETTER than TDK and now you'd get tomatoes thrown at you if you even thought about that.
        "Well, what I'm saying is that Man of Steel doesn't have a tone like TDK or Logan. You can't actually believe that if Nolan's films were released today, they would not have fared any better than Man of Steel, right? They captivated people. That's transcendent. TDK is actually tge number 1 favorite film of the Twitter community." -
        Not what I'm saying at all. TDK is in another league all to itself and seemingly will always be.
        "Not the Avengers. I don't agree that the Avengers ruined MoS' reception, I think MoS did that on its own." -
        I don't blame TA as being the sole purpose of MOS getting thrashed. I'm saying it's merely a factor. I mean, even you stated how much you hate throwing around the term "fun" because of how loosely it's used nowadays and by now, a lot of people are sick of the darker superhero movies. But that's not the sole factor. It's BECAUSE of how Superman is seen by the public (and fans) that also played a role in its reception.
        "The elements which are criticized, well, there's something to that. As I stated, Zack made a very hollow-feeling, rote film. Is every single scene guilty of it? No. But on the whole, overall, the cinematic experience of MoS just isn't there, man. The limitations of its craft and that the reach extends its grasp in that manner just didn't substantiate its self-importance. It didn't receive the welcome of the darker, more serious films in the genre because it simply was not as good. That's beyond how accurate Superman is or isn't presented. That's just speaking to Zack's limited ability to really key into what an audience needs from a film." -
        But therein lies what I've been disagreeing about this entire time. I don't believe at all that the movie is hollow or doesn't substantiate/justify its tone or "self-importance." It represents the Superman I've always wanted to see, but never quite got there by way of flawed or misguided attempts.
        Was it a "Dark Knight?" No, but it was still good in its own right.
        "I see that more as a case of an "artist" being self-indulgent rather than "brave", especially in Batman's case. You don't reinforce Batman's characterization by turning him into a killer and then "redeeming" him, you undercut it." -
        I disagree as it gives the character a place to go since he's being plopped into a world where Superman exists. With that in mind, it gives him a very real struggle to overcome as far as testing his morality and looking inward; it asks the question "Why do I even bother in a world of gods" and brings Bruce to that low point where he doesn't even know if what he does matters. It gives him that very real sense of self-doubt that's never really been tackled before in reaction to being a mortal in a metahuman world.
        "More to your point, if dark and serious films earn their tone, if they earn their acclaim, then I think the audience will reward them with it. But in both cases you have many of the same issues with connecting to the audience or achieving the basic levels of cinematic entertainment. " -
        But again, as I pointed out before, not EVERY film that's released gets rewarded immediately for what it does. Like I said, BvS will NEVER be seen as some misunderstood masterpiece, but just because people hated it when it first came out doesn't mean it "deserved" it any more than Blade Runner deserved its hate or The Exorcist or The Empire Strikes Back.
        "And then with BvS that is expounded by plot holes and logic gaps, questionable performances, and excess in almost every visual area of the movie as well as another emotional deficit that makes every emotional payoff in the film feel completely insincere." -
        Well, I definitely think cutting the movie up into pieces certainly helped with that factor. Even if it isn't a "completely different" film, the UE at the very least fixes a lot of the "tiny" bugs that led up to more annoying gripes and had it been the version everyone saw, at the very least, I don't think BvS would be as universally reviled. I don't think it would suddenly be LOVED, but it's a more competently made movie than most give it credit for.
        "Both films are criticized for being hollow experiences. I personally agree with that. And I'll actually throw Watchmen onto that pyre as well. Zack just makes stiff movies. It's not about tone (unless it's Superman), it's that his films feel fake." -
        And I'd disagree because I felt the majority of their tone and characterizations felt "right" and "earned." I'd reckon that "hollow" feeling is more akin to the characters moods as opposed to something wrong with the films. ESPECIALLY Watchmen. Oh, boy, do I love that movie.
        "And Superman II is awesome ;)" -
        Ah, see, I have to disagree. ;)
        Much like JL, it's a clear mishmash of two different visions and the reshoots were equally as jarring (minus a CG mustache) to see, although much less severe because Lester actually reshot most of the movie. Like JL, too, the humor felt very forced and definitely not keeping with Donner's "verisimilitude" stance on how to handle things.
        From nostalgia standpoints, I quite enjoy the movie in of itself, but as a MOVIE, it's a MESS to me and I can't unsee what could have been one of the greatest superhero sequels ever... And then that Donner cut only hurt matters more because it was so poorly put together by Michael Thau where scenes didn't "flow" and felt like you could mix them up and it wouldn't make a difference.
        I've seen FAN EDITS that were superior to both versions and that tells me there's a great movie buried in there somewhere. It just was never released "officially."
      14. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 23, 2017
        "In fairness, the film didn't exactly draw big crowds. It's not even to 600,000 votes on IMDB. TDKR is at well over a million. A lot of people held off of it until it hit home video. A well received film would have held that a little firmer than where MoS held up with a 7.1/10 rating on IMDB." -
        All things considered when putting the amount of hate the DCEU gets in perspective, the fact that MOS has been sitting at a 7.1/10 for over 2 years is impressive to say the least. Sure, it dropped from a high spot, but it still maintained a "it's good, not great" rating.
        "I consider it a great example of the statistical bias inherent to CinemaScore. It can tell you how well a film was marketed to its opening weekend crowd, but in terms of holding an audience and really getting its legs it's a straw poll at best." -
        True. But considering how C's for a cinemascore is almost equivalent to "F's", then an A- is still a fairly high score for a divisive movie. Especially since even JL can't muster an A-.
        "That's more a credit to TDK, though. There's really no beating Batman vs the Joker if it's really well executed. No other villain is a better challenge for any other hero in pop culture. It's just electric. But Bane has carved out a sizable space in pop culture history thanks to the film, and that's impressive for a relatively new villain who never had much exposure before..." -
        True, but it still doesn't take away from how TDKR is talked about nowadays. Even Batman Begins has gained more traction in people talking fondly about it while TDKR gets a lot more vocal hate.
        "People want a "fun" Superman film, sure. That's something that hasn't really been achieved since Superman II, much as you don't want to hear it. Not even Superman Returns in all of its reverence was much "fun"." -
        In all honesty, I find SR to be much more dour and depressing than MOS. It has lighter "moments" in it, but overall, the film is quite miserable when you really think about it. You have a Lois Lane who goes around with a chip on her shoulder for more than an hour and a half of the film, a Superman who spends a lot of time staring at walls or people without opening his mouth and who has even less lines of dialogue than Clark had in MOS, and an overall look that harkens toward the DCEU more than the Reeve films with a drab color palette and a Superman who doesn't even wear a red cape (it steers more toward a muddy brown).
        "But if Zack had turned in a TDK-level, dark Superman film, would the audience really have not liked it? I mean, TDK was more than just dark. That's my point." -
        I'm sure the audience would have certainly liked it MORE because as much as I love MOS, it's not without its share of flaws. I posit the ending as being an unearned "happy" ending when a quarter of Metropolis just blew up and would have preferred a much more dour ending ALA The Dark Knight where pundits argue over whether Superman "saved" Metropolis or brought terror and harm to it while Clark goes out of his way to dedicate his time to cleaning up the rubble and finding survivors in the wreckage.
        But as we discussed, there is a certain narrative audiences have in mind when thinking of a Superman film and that's why I believe MOS was always fighting an uphill battle. I like a "Fun" Superman movie as much as anyone else, but I'm also open to seeing different interpretations of the character (so long as it's not something like him wearing a pink dress as a substitute for his costume).
        "But, ya know, barring some masterpiece-level achievement, yeah, I agree that there was a big narrative going of how "you don't do Superman like you do Batman" that speaks to what people are willing to accept from that character. I'm just saying that I don't think MoS was a solid enough film to really change anyone's minds on that..." -
        And I see your point and respect your opinion. I just don't agree.
        "I don't see how any of that translates to "let me blow these dudes away with my machine gun", though..." -
        Haha... I gotcha.
        But it's more akin to "I've given up caring about collateral damage" then "I'm going to MURDER." I mean, even though Batman is clearly mowing people down in BvS, he's not just attacking criminals unprovoked or anything. If he was like using a sniper rifle to attack people who didn't do anything to him, then there'd be something to really talk about.
        "Logically, why does Superman inspire Batman to kill people? Sure, he probably feels powerless. I don't see how that translates to killing people. It's a logical leap. Batman's hope for humanity (which I'm not sure how Superman disrupts that) isn't why he had a rule against it, it's that he had a rule against it that evolved into "Batman" in the first place. Everything that Batman does, and how he does it, is so that he doesn't have to take lives. From dressing for effect, to carrying a belt-full of non-lethal armaments, to refraining from guns, to allying himself with Gordon and the GCPD, everything about Batman is necessitated by his personal choice NOT to kill people. Having him start killing people undercuts the substantiation of Bruce Wayne becoming Batman in the first place." -
        I see your point, but I disagree that it's a logical leap. There is more that factors into Batman going ballistic than just Superman's appearance. On top of that, the hints of Robin's (Jason Todd's) recent death plays a huge role in pushing him over the edge in ADDITION to bearing witness to the Kryptonian invasion AND the fact that Bruce Wayne is middle-aged and suffering a mid-life crisis.
        You're right - Batman's whole point is that he doesn't take lives. But looking at it from his perspective where he's been Batman for over 20 years now, lost allies in the line of duty, watched good people turn bad, and fighting a near losing battle protecting a city that never quite seems to get better no matter what he does during a time where ALIENS dropped from the sky, and a survivor amongst them can race from place to place working above the law with the powers of a god. I can definitely see why he'd be jaded as hell, thinking like nothing he ever did mattered or at least it all feels small and petty in comparison.
        I think it's summed up perfectly in his speech with Alfred right before he goes off to battle Superman.
        "I'm older now than my father ever was... This may be the ONLY thing I do that matters."
        "And Fighting criminals for 20 years? That amounts to nothing?"
        "Criminals are like weeds, Alfred. Pull one up and another grows in its place. This is about the future of the world."
        With that in mind, it just speaks loud and clear to me why Batman has simply given up caring about his one rule. It's pretty much a big fat "F##% it. I'm done caring about this." Which is WHY I love the moral dilemma of the actual fight with Batman and Superman and how Superman eventually brings Bruce back from his darkness and he eventually goes back to believing that "men are still good."
        "But the moral reasons for that arc just seem flimsy. "Superman's here now, so I guess I'll just cross my uncrossable line. I can come back from it later..." Of what narrative value is an uncrossable line that has already been crossed, is my question?" -
        Like I said, it's a mixture of things beyond just Superman's appearance. The destruction of Metropolis was merely the last straw that broke the camel's back. From a narrative perspective, I think it says a lot that Batman is able to be brought back from the brink of pain and despair to believing in humanity again and being motivated to go back to his old ways.
        "I disagree. Those were better made films, firstly." -
        True, but that kind of goes without saying and I never posited BvS to be on their level in the first place.
        "And the situations were completely different. They were trail-blazers. BvS is slotted comfortably in the middle of a well-defined genre. Also, there were nowhere near the number of critics back then. If you had 1 critic out of the 5 that actually had any prestige give your movie a bad review then it was just a bomb. We have hundreds of critics and millions and responsive movie-goers these days. And as more opinions started trickling in, the prestige of those films rose. Which is an indicator to me that, frankly, the audience for them was ALWAYS there. It didn't have to be "appreciated upon retrospect". The small sampling of opinions just gave a poor overview of the actual narrative at play..." -
        Not necessarily. There was no aggregative back then like RT or the same number of critics to give their opinions, but it is true that a lot of those movies did have an "appreciated upon retrospect" re-reaction. And it helped that back then, although moviegoers didn't have the internet, they did get re-releases and perspectives CAN and DO change upon several rewatches.
        "Yeah, but the big issues are still there. Superman's lack of levity, Batman's killing, the random JL inserts, "Martha", Eisenberg's Luthor, etc." -
        True, but by EXTRA CONTEXT given to some sequences (The Batman/Superman battle especially IMO is changed drastically with the Clark Kent scenes reinserted - it gives DETAIL and PERSPECTIVE as to why Clark didn't try harder to talk to Bruce when he has the words "a man like that, words don't stop him. You know what stops him? A FIST" ringing through his head).
        I also think the bigger issues that you mentioned are heavily lessened because now the film BREATHES naturally, benefitting from more setup and a pacing that flows organically which lessens the impact considerably. Even something as small and seemingly insignificant as Lex giving Mercy a deathglare when she stares at the kryptonite with awe adds context and setup to why he ends up blowing her up (I still hate that they killed off Mercy though).
        "I think it's a better version of the film, I do, but I don't think it's the difference between subpar and good...and some plot holes still remain. Like with the batmobile chase, for example..." -
        Fair. But to me, I think it improves the film significantly because my number one issue with the theatrical cut was its PACING. Scenes came and went with no flow or fluidity and even lacked your basic necessity of editing 101: Establishing shots. It was all over the place and no character was given time to really express themselves because nothing made sense due to such a mishmash of ordering. To me, it was like watching a beautiful slideshow of fantastic photographs and artwork, but without any context.
        The UE added context and fluidity. It also ESTABLISHED its tone and expressed its theme, setting the stage for the whole film thanks to the restored opening scene in Nairomi where Lois and the Nairomi leader are speaking and he says:
        "Men with power obey neither policy nor principle. Nobody is different and nobody is neutral."
        And that then plays up heavily AGAIN when Lex goes on his monologue to Superman, saying:
        "What we call god depends upon our tribe. Because God is tribal... God takes sides. I figured out way back that if god is all powerful, then he cannot be all good. And if he is all good, then he cannot be all powerful."
        But that connection/context, just from that extra bit of dialogue in the UE is lost in the messy Theatrical cut. It seems like such a little thing, but to me, all the little additions the UE had added up to make one gigantic difference and I went from "tolerating" the movie to "loving" it for that.
        "Did you read it before the film was being made?" -
        I didn't actually. And I saw the theatrical cut of Watchmen first (not in theaters - online) and I kinda just thought it was "meh." But then I read the comics afterward and from there, I saw the Watchmen Ultimate Cut and that's when my love for the film was really born.
        "I prefer Lester's cut, myself. You're right that the Donner cut feels like a Frankenstein (that actually made no sense considering the finale of the first film), but the way the film was originally produced came about just fine. I find the Lester cut fairly seamless. Reshoots were a lot simpler back then. Didn't really feel like a product of two different directors, I think it's a film with a lot of levity and drama in equal parts that was a product of both directors in fair measure. While Lester included some sight gags, that's certainly not something that should be wholly disruptive considering Spider-Man 2 did the same thing. And Lester's physical comedy was quite good." -
        I can definitely understand that viewpoint. And I agree that Lester's overall film definitely is much more watchable than the Donner cut because it FEELS like a movie as opposed to a playlist of deleted scenes. I just can't unsee the flaws of it and it ruins my enjoyment of the movie knowing there's a much better movie buried between the two cuts.
        For instance, I like Zod's funny side (his humorous sarcastic delivery of "Why do you say this to me when you know I will kill you for it" in Lester's cut is 100x better than his "menacing" delivery in Donner's), but I also love his sadistic side (Zod using the machine gun on the soldiers in the white house with a big smile on his face was badass as hell). Just like I think Reeve's acting during his return to the fortress of solitude after losing his powers in Lester's cut is much more subdued, subtle and POWERFUL while in Donner's Cut, it's too "wordy" and overdramatic (Difference: Lester's: "Father... Boy, I really wish you could hear me because I need you. See I.... I failed."
        Donner's: "Father.... If you can hear me, I failed. I failed you, failed myself and all of humanity. I traded my birthright for a world now ruled by your enemies.").
        So like I said, there's a great movie in there somewhere. But as it stands, you have one really entertaining movie with a lot of funny and memorable scenes, but nowhere near as well-balanced as STM and you have a cool montage of deleted scenes positing a neat "What if" question, but horribly edited and missing a lot of context.
      15. Captain DC
        November 19, 2017
        So Snyder doesn't love comics, because he likes the darker take on the superhero genre, that isn't necessarily YOUR taste? Seriously? From 2010 through 2017, he worked to bring the DC characters to life. Snyder's passion for the characters, was NEVER the problem. His vision just wasn't popular enough, to resonate with a lot of fans and critics.
      16. Hunter Zolomon
        November 21, 2017
        Thing is liking darker takes is not the problem, Watchmen and The Dark Knight Returns are my favorite comics and they are really dark so its not like i only like light comics. Problem is Snyder always misses the point and makes up stuff what was never there, he completely missed the point with Watchmen and he says the reason Bats shoots that guy when he does the "i believe you" bit in BvS was because Bats said the same thing in TDKR when according to Snyder he shoots a guy right through the head, thing is Bats never killed or shot a mutant right through head in TDKR and Snyder just made that up so had a reason for his Bat to kill.
      17. Pablo Alberto Escalante
        November 20, 2017
        ay ay americas the JL doesnt needs the money of americans, the world had 7 billions people , USA is not the centre (or ass ) of the world.
    4. BRUCEisGONE
      November 19, 2017
      Do not feed the troll
    5. Pablo Alberto Escalante
      November 20, 2017
      jajjajaj marvoludo , the JL doesnt needs the money of american idiots ,
      the movie will reach 1 billion thanks another countries , the same case
      of pacific rimm , outside USA the movie duplicates its earnigs USA 96
      million , rest of the worl (thinking people ) 195 millions ¡¡¡ OHHH
      almost the budget of the movie in only 3 days cry marvel and rotten
      tomatoes CRY
    6. MisFit 138
      November 20, 2017
      I wanted more BvS, I like when filmakers take properties I love seriously.
    7. Chad-Michael SImon
      November 21, 2017
      Denial, the first step
      1. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 21, 2017
        How is this denial?
  2. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    Absolutely true
  3. Saudefh Sauri Denis
    November 19, 2017
    then how come wonder woman was a success??
    no my man, the film is bad.
    1. ShobiNaq
      November 19, 2017
      Wonder woman had a low opening too (2nd lowest of DCEU) but due to amazing word of mouth and great reveiws it had amazing legs going into the next few weeks
      1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        people recovered faith due to wonder woman, the critics embargo was lifted ntill the last day... i still dont see how it was affected. Look i havent enjoy Dc lately but still I went to see if there was something interesting.. You need to remember that people not only go 1 time to the cinema but they can repeat if they love the film... When i love a film I go 3 times to see it, if I didnt like it i dont go ever again... you need to consider that. Its a common thing that almost every person do.
      2. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        John Campea went to see the movie four times. Plenty of people on twitter say they have gone three times. It has good replay value, arguably even better than WW's.
      3. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        thanks on telling me that, cus I dont trust John campea judgement, he get hyped by anything.
      4. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        True. He's the worst movie pundit in existence.
      5. Origami Rose
        November 19, 2017
        john payed only twice the other two he got for free from press screening. so there
      6. ShobiNaq
        November 19, 2017
        I was just saying, in comparison to WW, that movie had a lower opening, but reviews and word of mouth were great. JL was going to have a lower opening than SS, but word of mouth and reviews were terrible, so it did even less than expected. I blame Zack Snyder anyways. Him and his creative team just need to get the boot (should've happened a long time ago)
      7. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        Zack is a stupid writer, but has good ideas... they should let him only direct but never write a story.
      8. ShobiNaq
        November 19, 2017
        that's not true, most people don't go to the cinema more than once. Even if they liked the film. And if they think it'll suck, they won't go at all.
      9. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        we are all blind expectators, word of mouth only convince the people that dont wanna be lied again.
    2. Nahuel Benvenuto
      November 19, 2017
      ww is not a great movie either
      1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        true
  4. OptimistPrime99
    November 19, 2017
    The Wonder Woman movie kinda transcended the DC brand, because it was marketed as the first modern-day female-led superhero movie (done for real this time). That along with the great word of mouth, led to the financial success of Wonder Woman.
  5. C.
    November 19, 2017
    I agree that JL isn't bad. But I think we as fans failed the movie, just looking at this comments in this site is just sad, we spend time getting at each other and turning off the regular audience, if fans can't say anything good, what is someone expected. A good number of people that I know and don't follow comics they enjoyed the movies after I recommended, they hadn't watched because other "fans" told them it wasn't worth it. I know Snyder's films didn't appeal to everyone, but I rather let people go watch and make their own mind.
    Like any sports your team might not have good years, but if you are a fan you stay proud and support them, look at the cubs fans. Hopefully DC doesn't take 100 years to make a great movie, but this fail is on us.
    1. Rust
      November 20, 2017
      Very well put. Too few people make up their own minds these days, and it seems like everyone needs some extreme hot or cold opinion. No balance or forgiveness.
  6. J.K.2019
    November 19, 2017
    That's what happens when you keep making bad movies with hack directors and still expect that people will blindly keep watching it.Even new transformer movie got screwed.
  7. Oreole
    November 20, 2017
    It's not a bad movie but it is a bland movie.
  8. MisFit 138
    November 20, 2017
    I disagree. It is a bad movie, but its also the victim of circimstance. It turned out good, all things considered, but thats a fan making concessions. For me, the problems with this film are the bad cgi, bad dialogue/forced jokes (to be fair, some very funny ones too) and a very generic and extremely predictable plot. Wonder Woman enjoyed the success it had because WW is a legend and this is her first movie, on top of that, "female superhero" is a fresh angle overall. Theres nothing new in Justice League. I loved MoS, really love that Ultimate cut of BvS too. Wonder Woman was the first step back towards generic mediocrity, those villians were hackey AF. Couple that with some bad cgi (and some good) and you get the extremely pivoted "most successful superhero film directed by a female" which is Hollywood speak for "not bad for a dame". Its a very conflated victory. The trailers for Justice League showed the world "we doubled down generic comic tropes, like bad jokes!"
    1. Bartholomew Hunt
      November 21, 2017
      I don't see it that way. Wonder Woman may have been somewhat of a novelty, being a female-led CBM directed by a woman, but it was also a really well-made film. Yes, it was paint by the numbers, but the character was relatable and endearing, the story was coherent and mostly well paced, support cast was also very good. Third act kinda let me down, but it was still a really good experience for two thirds of the film.
      BvS and MoS tried to be something different, they took risks. While admirable, it's safe to say those risks hadn't paid off. The movies were meh to bad, riddled with problems in the editing, casting, acting, but mostly with stories they wanted to tell. The majority not only didn't like the stories, it downright resented them. For you it may have worked; for the rest of us, it didn't.
2. OmegaCorleone
  November 19, 2017
  Tsujihara should resign.
  1. Craigmcl
    November 19, 2017
    WB is actually having a pretty decent year. IT was insanely profitable, Dunkirk was a smash, WW had crazy strong legs. Kong and Lego Batman underperformed slightly, but still profitable.
    The team behind the DCEU should resign, absolutely. And he should fire them if they don't.
    1. DudeofSteel1Million
      November 19, 2017
      What world do we live in where friggin IT slays JL at the box office?
      What an embarrassment. lol
      1. nipple_pinchy
        November 19, 2017
        IT had a $35m budget and almost made $700m. It was a really good movie, too.
      2. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        I thought IT was decent. Little cliched, but decent. I'm just saying that it's embarrassing that JL is going to get pwned by IT.
      3. nipple_pinchy
        November 19, 2017
        Good movies always shine, man.
      4. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        IT was good, JL is embarrasing.
    2. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
      November 19, 2017
      bladerunner 2049
      1. Craigmcl
        November 19, 2017
        And Geostorm and King Arthur and Ninjago. Even with those weighing down the slate, they're still going to have the second best budget-to-gross ratio of the big studios. (Disney is going to destroy, of course.)
      2. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
        November 19, 2017
        ninjango flopped??
      3. nipple_pinchy
        November 19, 2017
        I'm still waiting for the Pogs movie.
      4. Wagner Von Schmit
        November 20, 2017
        Under performed apparently.
      5. OmegaCorleone
        November 19, 2017
        All things considered it was never going to be a BO hit but dammit is the film mighty mighty fine.
      6. Vger64
        November 19, 2017
        2049 is the best movie so far of the year!
      7. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
        November 19, 2017
        maybe. financially disappointing
    3. OmegaCorleone
      November 19, 2017
      They had some hits yes. However, I really think Tsujihara should resign and honestly, perhaps it's for the best if they let Snyder go as well. I mean, PLEASE let him make his director's cut of JL if he wants to but I think they should stop after that.
      As for Tsujihara, you can't just demand that a film has a certain runtime. You just shouldn't.
      1. Aiddon
        November 19, 2017
        Well, plus there's the fact that Tsujihara has come under fire for the whole Rattner fiasco, making people wonder how much he knew about what Rattner was doing. He wouldn't exactly be a casualty people would be broken up over.
    4. Aiddon
      November 19, 2017
      Er, Tsujihara is the one who demanded a lot of the changes to JL. This is the film he wanted, he doesn't get to complain.
      1. Craigmcl
        November 20, 2017
        We have no idea whether the changes made the movie better or worse. Based on Snyder's poor historical track record, it's probably the former.
        Anyway, the only thing that is actually likely to get Tsujihara fired is if the merger goes through and AT&T brings in their own chairman. Snyder fans are myopically focused on Justice League, but are woefully misinformed on the actual corporate politics.
  2. J.K.2019
    November 19, 2017
    Yeah, He should be fired along with the hack snyder and his hack wife.
3. DudeofSteel1Million
  November 19, 2017
  BvS is not blameless for sure - but the blame primarily falls on the final movie JL turned out to be. I enjoyed it, but a "serviceable" movie is not enough to save this franchise and the middling reviews alongside that stupid embargo was the last straw for many.
  As for Zack, he's definitely not without his share of the blame, but I'm tired of harping on him as it feels like kicking a dead horse.
  And then as for the fans.... Well, they're not blameless either, but the movie couldn't even please those die-hard DCEU fanatics and managed to alienate both those who would swear by Snyder's name and those who felt hope for Whedon, but know he didn't do enough to wipe clean Snyder's fingerprints.
  And just for good measure, include yourself in the blame game too. ;)
4. Ramboman24
  November 19, 2017
  It's hard for me to completely blame Zack because even though his movies aren't the most well made films he did give us so many great things.
  I'm not sure any other director would've got Affleck in the Batman role, I don't think anyone else would've got us Henry Cavill as Superman. These are near perfect casting choices and what other director would've given us a Batman fight scene with the brutality level of BvS' warehouse scene?
  Everything from Zack has been hit or miss for me but it's frustrating because the good stuff is extremely good but there's just so much stuff that didn't work.
  1. Axxell
    November 19, 2017
    I'll give you the Henry Cavill casting was inspired. Everything else...meh...
  2. BRUCEisGONE
    November 19, 2017
    What didn't work?
  3. BRUCEisGONE
    November 19, 2017
    That scene would've been spectacular if Zack edited it. That over-exposed, over-saturated and terribly scored scene was a total shit and came off cheesy instead of serious and intimidating. As the whole movie.
  4. Ramboman24
    November 19, 2017
    I liked that scene. I didn't think the takedown on the thug was anything special but the whole atmosphere of the scene and the way he hooked him up to the grapple gun and left him dangling was pretty sweet. Thought it was a cool scene.
    If BvS wasn't so poorly received I think Batman could've knocked him around a little harder first but it is what it is. Everybody cries about things being too dark I guess that's where were at these days lol.
    Loved his batsuit in this film. Looked perfect to me in most scenes. That's why I'm at such odds with Zack Snyder. He's done a lot of great stuff but he just doesn't understand how to make a great movie.
    1. Ramboman24
      November 19, 2017
      Ugh the Nolan suit looks horrible imo. The mouth piece is too small, the neck was hideous and all the busy armor plating was just too much. It ends up looking like a robo-batman rather than the simplistic fabric costume we get the comics.
      I'm not into all this high-tech armored Batman stuff it reminds me too much the second suit they gave him in Batman Forever. At the end of the day, it's just not the Batman I grew up seeing. Probably why I didn't like the second suit he wore in JL.
      And if you're gonna get all take it as you see it on me then Nolan's Batsuit is not practical for fighting crime at all either no matter what you say and I've been over this before. It was an improvement over the Begins suit for movement, but it still is in no way shape or form something you could honestly consider fighting crime in. It's still too heavy and restricts movement too much, it shows in Nolan's slow fight scenes.
      I know the suit in Zack's movies are not actual fabric, but it's what they are trying to imitate and I could suspend my disbelief enough to say ok there's Batman wearing his fabric costume. I can understand what they were going for rather than tying myself down to my knowledge of what the actual suit materials are.
      If we do that, then no live action Batman costume except for Adam West's would've been anywhere near practical for a fist fight or physical activity of any kind.
      1. Ramboman24
        November 19, 2017
        Yeah but the choreography was far more impressive and fast than anything Nolan ever gave us. I'm sure you could've shot the Nolan fight scenes over again using the BvS batsuit and would've been fine.
        Look at the choreography in the warehouse extended cut scene when he's taking on multiple thugs at once it's fast and intense.
        If you've gotta cgi the cape to achieve great looking scenes like that then go for it. None of these fights are real anyway, so as if I'm going to be upset over a CGI cape. Do what you have to do to give us a great scene.
        As long as I don't notice CGI, more specifically things like cgi capes, then I don't care. If they CGI'd all of Batman in the warehouse scene... then I'd have a problem with it.
      2. Ramboman24
        November 19, 2017
        "That's what the BvS batsuit looks like to me. It doesn't look like it has the weight that it should have while in motion. Something about it always looks just off-kilter. Also, this is a mid-40s Batman. He shouldn't be all that 'flippy' and flashy anyway. The Batman that I thought Ben should be is a tactical bruiser that wins fights with his fists and his mind, not a prime Batman relying on athleticism. They made an over-the-hill Batman and then forgot to take him over the hill."
        He should've fought closer to how Bale fought. Slow, with weak punches & kicks. hahaha jk
        That's more over the hill.
        And since Nolan's Batman was younger, he should've moved quick like Affleck's Batman. XD
    2. Bruce Wayne
      November 20, 2017
      Because he wanted to strike fear in him. 🙄
  5. Ramboman24
    November 19, 2017
    Eh the Prewitt scene is actually a good example of why Nolan's Batman doesn't really work for me. Technically, that scene was impressive and a lot of impressive stunt work went into making it all come together. From a filmmaker perspective, I respect Nolan for what he did in that scene.
    What I like about Zack over Nolan is that Zack understands how to make comic book characters look "good" on the big screen. Batman's look is extremely important because part of his thing is intimidation. Therefore, Batman's costume has to look good or it's not going to have the effect that it's supposed to. I open up a comic book and see a drawing by Jason Fabok of a Batman with his blood pumping and he just looks tough as hell. That's the kind of Batman that Zack Snyder gives us.
    The Nolan costume, ( the one that makes him look skinny) just didn't work for me and in the Prewitt scene specifically he had those white eyes and a serious case of duck mouth going on the whole time which just never quite looked like Batman to me.
    That scene also could've benefited from a little bit of flashiness it would've made the whole thing a lot better. When the doctors/swat guys are attacking Batman and he's throwing attacks at them, I'd like to actually see Batman knocking them around hard but instead we've got Batman throwing weak little slaps and kicks with some very poor camera angles that just made the actual fighting in the scene very disappointing.
    I just think a little more flash in Nolan's action scenes could've made them a lot better. He's sometimes just so devoid of style that it ends up detracting even if his action scenes are quite ambitious.
    SO in other words, I respect what he's trying to do, but his visual style and delivery often ends up ruining most of his Batman action scenes.
    I don't have this issue with Zack Snyder. And I think Batman looked absolutely phenomenal in all his scenes in JL. Better than how he was presented in BvS.
    1. Ramboman24
      November 19, 2017
      https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
      The suit looks especially terrible from the side profile. That just isn't batman. That looks like scrawny awkward weiner. And look, I'll be fair, the Batman Begins costume looked pretty great so it's not just me hating on Nolan for the hell of it. TDK costume was a serious downgrade. I don't know the head shape and extra pointy nose is just weird as hell!! It looks like a skinny Batman running around with a helmet on and that helmet just happens to also be his mask.
      The head has too much rounded shape, I've always seen Batman as a square headed hero with a thick neck. And in that picture you posted he's doing that mouth breathing thing showing that clearly Bale had trouble breathing through his nose. It looks like when someone puts on a pair of underwater goggles that covers their nose as well.
      Bale was cut in TDK, but he wasn't that big. He was a beast in Batman Begins I'll admit that. Ben Affleck was actually huge in BvS you can see it all during his training scene. And if JL didn't have a shirtless scene with Affleck, we don't really need to see what his physique was like because he's a naturally big guy. So I can buy into him being muscular still based on what I saw in BvS.
      If I can level with you, I wouldn't mind if they toned down the fake muscles a bit even though they don't really bother me. I think the suit Cavill wore in MOS was perfect. It just highlighted his natural physique rather than giving him fake definition over his real definition.
      No you couldn't see the a well defined bicep on the outside of his costume. but you could tell a real one was there underneath and it still looked pretty intimidating. I think something like that for both Batman/Superman's bodysuits would be perfection.
      But like I say, I don't mind the fake muscles, they aren't that noticeable or distracting for me.
      1. Ramboman24
        November 19, 2017
        And by flashy I just meant that I wish Nolan would've emphasized the power of Batman's punches a little better. Sometimes, his choreography is just so dull. I get that he's going for a gritty real world aesthetic, but I've seen other cbm's that go for that, and they don't have the same problem that Nolan has.
        Make the attacks look a little bit harder, make the thugs have a more exaggerated reaction to getting hit then just that same boring way they always fall down in Nolan's movies. And show some more interesting camera angles, or close ups so that the camera work doesn't always seem so boring and the choreography doesn't always look so obvious. Those are the kinds of things that make a fight scene more memorable and exciting.
        He doesn't have to go completely over the top and ruin the real world thing he's going for but it's a movie for god sakes and Batman is never going to be a completely realistic thing anyway so it's ok to turn the dial up a little bit.
        Sometimes Nolan's fight scenes looked decent, other times I was just like ugh that looked horrible.
      2. Ramboman24
        November 19, 2017
        Fair enough.
    2. Saudefh Sauri Denis
      November 19, 2017
      hahaha cant beleive there is a discussion about this issue.
5. nipple_pinchy
  November 19, 2017
  JL was my most anticipated movie of all time and I'm actually considering skipping it. I don't want to tell WB that they should stay on course and keep making DC movies like this.
6. ShobiNaq
  November 19, 2017
  I agree, Zack should get most of the blame. But Snyder fanboys will never accept that. Most of them don't even read comics. At this point, I just want him gone, so we don't have any of these cancerous Snyder fanboys yelling and screaming about how an awful movie like BVS is a visionary masterpiece. No, BVS will go down in infamy, just like Batman Forever and Batman and Robin.
  1. ShobiNaq
    November 19, 2017
    no, he's technically still signed on to produce JL 2. I don't want his name on anything DC, AT ALL. The fact that some Snyder Fanboys are actually petitioning for a Zack Snyder cut is disgusting. They have no respect for DC comics.
  2. Saudefh Sauri Denis
    November 19, 2017
    haha so you need to read comics to appreciate a film quality? cmon, a good film shines everywhere... im not a comic book reader, im a cinema guy but i love the super hero genre, Being a DC comic book reader doesnt adds anything on the table to judge a film. DC fans can only judge if its accurate to the source material, nothing more.. but you cant expect to see a film interpretation exactly as a comic, what works in comic books doesnt work in cinema, they are 2 different medias and ways of storitelling. Thats why comic book writers cannot write movie scripts, and when they do they usually fail. and well, comics arent arent great story achievements, comics are made for teenagers. few comic writers are great and write good stories that any person with any lvl of IQ may love.
    1. ShobiNaq
      November 19, 2017
      Not what I said, I said Snyder fans shouldn't call themselves DC fans because they don't respect what the characters actually represent in comics, because they don't read comics. Yet the average low IQ (and I'm convinced almost every Snyder fanboy has a dangerously low IQ) Snyder fan goes out of their way to say things like "Geoff Johns sucks, what has he ever done?" While they proceed to praise a director like Snyder who will never have a movie cross a billion or win any type of film award outside of a Razzie. Oh btw, Joss Whedon wrote 2 years worth of X-Men (one of the most acclaimed X-Men comics) 8 years before he got to direct avengers
      1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        i was the one bashing Geoff lol... ok i havent read anything on him, so i dont know him, but then who`s fault is it? his script was cancelled, I saw a naive wonder woman film (everybody praised te film but i dont get it, even my wife find it WW not great, was an ok film. Zack did mess a lot in BvS but still the film was entertaining, but this one its so awful. Zack cand direct but never ever let him write a story again, he has such bad taste.
      2. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        and true, zack has not respect for the characters... but who does?? captain nazi america? in comics doesnt follow an honest continuity... they create and destroy all the time, using us as their bitches.. i dont agree on that at all
      3. Hunter Zolomon
        November 21, 2017
        Look you don't need to read DC comics to be a fan or not but you can't then go around acting like you know how these characters are if your only experience with them is a handful of films and cartoon series. End of the day a great deal of the Snyder fanboys i see on these sites clearly don't read the comics yet act like their massive fans of DC and know how DC is and what these characters are.
  3. Nahuel Benvenuto
    November 19, 2017
    lol, WTF are you saying
  4. Nahuel Benvenuto
    November 19, 2017
    jeez the ammount of trolls here is underwhelming
    1. Hunter Zolomon
      November 21, 2017
      You're one to talk considering you're one of them, if i was Mod i would have banned you ages ago.
  5. Bruce Wayne
    November 20, 2017
    Yet BvS and MoS have higher openings than kiddie piss poor imitation justice league marvel movie.
    1. ShobiNaq
      November 20, 2017
      Come on Bruce, you're supposed to be smarter than this. The way it works is: "fool me once (MOS) shame on you, fool me twice (BVS) shame on me, you won't fool me the third time (JL)". This is why JL had such a low opening day (half of BVS). People were burned by 2 Snyder movies and didn't want to be burned a third time so they didn't show up. And even if you dislike avengers (which is totally fine, we all have our own opinions and preferences), the general audience enjoyed the kid friendly light approach.
      1. Bruce Wayne
        November 20, 2017
        Unlikely. BvS at least had an opening box office weekend just $20 million shy of Civil War. Justice League didn't even crack the first four DCEU movies that includes the mess called Suicide Squad. That isn't just an embarrassment. That is an epic disaster. This is a result of WB meddling with things and bastardizing the movie out of panic and reactionary moves. Justice League is not Avengers. They tried to marvelize the characters and it just looked stupid. Batman cracking jokes and being a wuss. Aquaman being a dudebro. Be for real now. They can make a "fun" movie without sacrificing characterization.
        In a way, I am glad this is happening. If Justice League had done well. It would have sent a message to WB that this is the right way to go. Part of what drives a strong opening weekend is multiple visits. I saw BvS three times when it opened. I wish I could erase my one visit of Justice League. If Justice League bombs, I'll be happy. Enough is enough.
        None of this is meant at you by the way. I'm just sort of venting.
      2. ShobiNaq
        November 21, 2017
        Sorry man, I think you're wrong because the CinemaScore (do some research on what Cinemascore is btw) on JL is better than BVS. You don't understand, the general audience disliked BVS. The reason BVS did so well opening weekend was because of the goodwill from Dark Knight series. BVS was the first time we saw Batman on screen since Dark Knight. Think about it, what other reason would BVS have a 69-70% drop by the next week (and if we're using Civil War as an argument, why didn't Civil War have that large of a drop?). In one movie, Snyder managed to make him a pop culture joke again. Think about it, how often do you now go on Youtube for a Batman vid, and one of the top comments is always a Martha joke? That's because of Snyder. JL was a direct sequel to BVS, and the fans just didn't like BVS. They were fooled into it by good marketing, but they've been burned too much to accept a Snyder film, plain and simple. Sorry man, but that's the truth.
    2. Hunter Zolomon
      November 21, 2017
      I love the dig on Marvel yet all 3 of their films have outgrossed every DC film this year (JL won't be crossing 800 million while Thor will), if people didn't like humor then Thor wouldn't be such a massive hit and WW wouldn't have been praised for some of its lighter moments.
      1. Bruce Wayne
        November 21, 2017
        JL is outpacing Thor overseas...
      2. Hunter Zolomon
        November 21, 2017
        and? Thor will still out gross it and be more of a success, Thor didn't cost 300 million to make (despite having far better CGI) and have a 150-200 marketing budget. Marvel right now are most likely thinking at least about a 4th Thor film while i suspect WB are actually thinking about not even bothering with a JL2 now. Also before you call me a Marvel fanboy i actually preferred JL to Thor even if Thor is a better made film, hell i'm seeing JL again later tonight as i want to see it again.
7. Mike P.
  November 19, 2017
  I said they should have been ashamed of themselves the moment they announced BVS. I can understand wanting to give Superman another movie but to reboot Batman again after being shown the best one since Conroy was insulting not only to Nolan but the enire team who made those movies. Those movies are still the best. Don't believe me? Look up their RT scores ;)
  1. DudeofSteel1Million
    November 19, 2017
    See, and that's why they should have just done a solo MAN OF STEEL 2 before they even thought about a Batman crossover. Blame WB for that one. Even freaking David S. Goyer said "You go do a Batman and Superman movie when you've exhausted every other possible idea" and was against it.
8. J.K.2019
  November 19, 2017
  Yeah, They should be ashamed cause they keep hiring a hack of a director.They should have fired Zack Snyder after MOS disastrous box office but they kept hiring him so yeah they deserve this.
9. Bob Burger
  November 20, 2017
  As DIANA would say:
  https://media.giphy.com/med...
10. PizzaPlanet
  November 20, 2017
  WB NEEDS TO PUT SUPERMAN ON THE ADS
  IT WILL SAVE THE FILM
11. Pablo Alberto Escalante
  November 20, 2017
  jajjajaj marvoludo , the JL doesnt needs the money of american idiots ,
  the movie will reach 1 billion thanks another countries , the same case
  of pacific rimm , outside USA the movie duplicates its earnigs USA 96
  million , rest of the worl (thinking people ) 195 millions ¡¡¡ OHHH
  almost the budget of the movie in only 3 days cry marvel and rotten
  tomatoes CRY in two weeks will 800 hundrend millions easily , in 2 1 billion.
12. Nick
  November 20, 2017
  The movie was good I thought. I think the low box office is the result of the previous movies. Many people probably were really skeptical about this movie after how unwell the previous movies were received. I assume many people stopped caring because they were not satisfied with the previous movies, and, realistically, DC has had three chances already: MoS, BvS, and Suicide Squad. Wonder Woman was special because it was the first female led superhero movie. I think that is the only reason it got more support on opening weekend. But, since JL is less centered on WW, less people really cared. MoS, BvS, and Suicide Squad were popular with some people, but not popular with the majority of people. The same people that liked MoS, BvS, and Suicide Squad are probably the same ones that went to see JL.
DudeofSteel1Million
November 19, 2017
That mother#%# ought to be fired effective immediately.
1. R3aL
  November 19, 2017
  My guess is that we cannot put the fault on one man
Saudefh Sauri Denis
November 19, 2017
Good, they got what they deserve. im happy
1. nipple_pinchy
  November 19, 2017
  The marketing team from WB should get medals or awards or something because from a marketing standpoint I think JL had the best campaign in the last ten years in regards to beautiful art/posters, mass media exposure, massively charismatic leads all over social media, keeping Superman's involvement mostly secret. *sigh* Missed opportunities...
  1. nipple_pinchy
    November 19, 2017
    That's actually literally true.
2. rbzfan
  November 20, 2017
  All I want at this point is some kind of extended cut that puts some of Zack's scene back into the movie. If that happens, I'll be happy.
  1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
    November 20, 2017
    they will do it for sure but still, we dont really know how much they change the movie to begin with the modifications when BvS came out
lolTengu
November 19, 2017
As it should. This is the only way they'll learn.
Jesse Hernandez
November 19, 2017
Kevin ..... what the hell did you do
1. DudeofSteel1Million
  November 19, 2017
  What did he do? He f$^$^d up. As usual.
2. ShobiNaq
  November 19, 2017
  He let Snyder be the creative force behind an entire universe. Needs to be fired as well as Snyder, Terrio, Joss (which I blame Snyder for bringing Joss on, he even said it was him who reached out), Charles Roven etc. The whole lot needs to go, keep patty Jenkins and James wan
  1. Jesse Hernandez
    November 19, 2017
    I’m pretty sure this was Snyder’s last film . I was really looking forward for a Superman stand alone
    1. Ramboman24
      November 19, 2017
      I bet another director could give us a better Superman film built off of what Zack started (cast. characters)
      1. Jesse Hernandez
        November 19, 2017
        I wouldn’t throw much hate at Snyder... his vision of Krypton was amazing. His portrayal of Superman and Batman is something that was new and Ballsy to do. I loved both... honestly
      2. Ramboman24
        November 19, 2017
        I'm not throwing hate his way, I really did like Man of Steel. But the one weakness I do see in Snyder is creating characters that connect with audiences in an optimistic way.
        If they take everything Zack started, and respect the world he's created but continue to expand I think we can get something great.
        Give us the more lively version of Superman we saw in Justice League but don't give us another Christopher Reeve Superman movie. Try to find the middle ground.
      3. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        where is nolan to pull the leash??
    2. ShobiNaq
      November 19, 2017
      Matthew Vaughan will give us the Superman we deserve. Not some emo depressed asshole that questions whether he should save be Superman (like how Superman was in BVS). I just hope they keep Cavill, because none of this is his fault (same goes for the rest of the cast, ok maybe get rid of Affleck, just because he no longer seems interested).
      1. Jesse Hernandez
        November 19, 2017
        I mean he was conflicted on helping or not... MOS he went out there and saved the world.. BvS was conflicting since he was in the capitol building when it exploded and saw people dead and he sacrificed himself for Mankind & JL was the true incarnation of Superman... Ben yeah he looks like he’s already tired of Batman I would literally be the first in line to see a Batman movie starting him for proably the last time
      2. Ramboman24
        November 19, 2017
        Not everything Zack did with Superman was bad. Man of Steel was pretty good. It's just BvS where Superman was pretty painful to watch.
      3. ShobiNaq
        November 19, 2017
        I agree, MOS was great until the 3rd act. But the 3rd act shifted it from an A- film to a C- film.
3. Washington
  November 19, 2017
  He appointed an idiot known as "God Almighty" Geoff Johns to be in charge of DCEU to hire Whedon and let a 1 hr 59 minute runtime be the best option for the movie.
  1. ShobiNaq
    November 19, 2017
    Geoff Johns is the reason DC comics (comics division) hasn't gone bankrupt, because anytime he comes on to a comic it ranges from good-masterpiece. I can tell you're a Snyder fan and not an actual DC fan. Too bad you're too blind to blame the person that actually deserves it, ZACK SNYDER
    1. Nahuel Benvenuto
      November 19, 2017
      and you call other people fanboys, lol, go away troll
4. Saudefh Sauri Denis
  November 19, 2017
  pls somebody make change.org petition for the exit of tsujihara and Geof
  1. ShobiNaq
    November 19, 2017
    Geoff Johns is the most important person at DC right now. He came on to this after filming and production has started. In fact, DC comics, you know, the COMIC BOOK company that created batman, yeah DC comics division would be bankrupt right now if it weren't for Geoff Johns saving them constantly. Stop being a fake DC fan, just come out and admit you're a Snyder fan.
    1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
      November 19, 2017
      im interested in hero films , and good films. But comic books? mostly everything they write for comics is garbage- they write a lot of dumb stories. Compare a comic book an a manga, comics dont have millions of followers of a series, and need to pass years for a good comic to come out, instead you can see great manga stories such as Full metal alchemist, shingeki no kyojin, naruto, bleach one piece... with uninterrupted chapters. What has comic writers do lately? Garbage. I love dc characters, but being a fan doenst mean you have to accept every shit they made. How can I not bea fan when i am daily trying to get info of this type of films, I care for batman, its my favorite heroe, but DC has been disrespecting the audience. Wish Nolan was back, but i have faith in Matt reeves.
      1. ShobiNaq
        November 19, 2017
        Wow so misinformed. Comics sell over a million too. And if it weren't for comics you wouldn't get those Nolan films you love. Of course not all of them are great, in fact I agree some comics are really shit (just look at the stuff marvel did turning captain America into a nazi). But Geoff Johns is one of the few writers who has never put out a bad story. Some of his stories are just good and not legendary, sure, but never bad. And don't give me that weeb shit, for every DBZ, deathnote, full metal there are hundreds that you and I never heard of because they're too shit to make it out of Japan lol. Oh btw how many good animes/manga have translated well into feature length live action films? Lmaoo, not a single one!
      2. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        comic book fandom is mostly in America, foreig people has other perspective.
        I grew up reading comics and watching superhero films. Reeves superman, tim burton.. even the spiderman from the tv series, hulk, etc. everybody love them but not all follow the comic books. I read mostly manga, anime and film adaptation of our beloved heroes. I dont defend Zack for his mistakes... has some good visuals amd cam create great cinema moments, but i dont like his stories at all
Knight-Errant
November 19, 2017
I’m curious the legs on this thing. The objective people I’ve spoken with said it’s very watchable. I know some people here are firing up the torches & sharpening the pitchforks for Whedon, but despite the opening weekend, it could have the endurance to be successful.
1. nipple_pinchy
  November 19, 2017
  Audience scores at RT gives it 87% liked with an average of 4.3 out of 5 with 97,000 votes.
  1. DudeofSteel1Million
    November 19, 2017
    Who cares?
    Man of Steel had an 84% on Rotten Tomatoes when it first came out from audience ratings and yet that didn't save it from dropping 64% in its second weekend.
    Justice League is in an even MORE precarious situation with a LOWER RT critical score, a higher budget, and a terrible Opening weekend (MOS' opening weekend exceeded expectations - JL couldn't even beat the most modest of predictions).
    1. nipple_pinchy
      November 19, 2017
      Good points. I hope this humbles WB and they take the DC brand back to its classic roots.
    2. Saudefh Sauri Denis
      November 19, 2017
      MOS was a great film but ended in a sad way... it was depressing... its not something common on Super hero films. according to drama principles, the second arc need it to be something with more heart, with hope... instead it went more dark and depressing. That was a mistake. Who is counseling the WB guys and zack?? no one of course.. they dont know any drama principle. and Zack is a good storyteller but has really bad writing ideas, he is like a kid with a taste for crudeness
      1. Rust
        November 19, 2017
        I thought MOS had a happy ending. The scene with the Daily Planet where Lois says "Welcome to the Planet." and Clark smiles and replies "Glad to be here." followed by that beautiful credits music had me grinning ear to ear.
        He didn't like having to kill Zod, but he fulfilled his destiny and did both Jor El and the Kents proud. He found his purpose and saved everybody he realistically could. It was a win, even if it was challenging for him. It was a much happier ending than The Dark Knight, which no one minded back then, just five years prior.
      2. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        happy? the good guy won but the entire scenario was sad and depressing as well. I mean the next film need it to be different. Take for example Starwar original trilogy, the first one was a triumph, the second one was, dark and end it bad for the hero, but the third became a cheerful victory,
        MOS was soursweet wuth hope at the end of the film, it was grey... and BvS went farther... it was a good story,not perfect but entertaining... but for the mainstream people its not something they want to watch.
        BvS real issue was some dumb decissions batman made (his unreasonable hate and fear against superman, the martha thing.... besides that this batman was totally different than its precessors.. he even kill..its really hard to break an establish paradigma, or the batman symbol, people couldnt stand so many changes. Its the director fault.
      3. Mark
        November 19, 2017
        Something that's occurred to me lately is that, by design, MoS and BvS aren't "superhero films." They discard the underpinning comic book concept that these people will always do the right thing "just because" and instead explore the idea that these are people with amazing powers and/or resources, but beyond that they're as blind and emotionally vulnerable as we are, trying to do the right thing without the benefit of the writer proclaiming what the right thing is.
      4. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        they are super hero films... i have nothing against MOS, i loved that film, but SOME people want to go to the movies just to have fun in their lives, forget about the sadness of this world, and when they dont find the type of film they were looking for they get upset.
        The same happens with the people that didnt like justice league... they wanted something with more meaning, with a strong message to share, not just a flashy show. WB need to learn that is possible to bring both things to the table, and make a great product. the problem is that they just care for money, and they are rushing people to make low quality products. Ben Affleck wanted to make a good batman film but warner was rushing him, at the end he brought a script he wasnt sattisfy with... they didnt give him enough time, so the project was gave to matt reeves.
  2. Seb
    November 19, 2017
    Those numbers are inflated. They also take into account the "90 000 I want to see this film" votes from even before the movie was out. That's why RT fan scores are worthless. Cinemascore is far more accurate. They gave it a B+, which correlates (in terms of Cinemascores, I know that B+ sounds great, but that's not a great rating by any means) with a "so so" reaction. It's good, but it's not 87% great, as RT seems to suggest. If JL has the same multiplier as BvS, it will make around 560 Million worldwide, which translates to WB LOSING money. There's a high chance this movie is a complete bomb for WB. They fucking deserve it. Bunch of dumb fucks.
    1. nipple_pinchy
      November 19, 2017
      In a way, I kind of hope it bombs(something I never imagined I'd say) so WB can finally be humbled, sober up and realize how they're mistreating this franchise. They have a goddamn goldmine on their hands and they're just playing with live hand grenades as of right now.
      1. Seb
        November 19, 2017
        I know EXACTLY what you mean. I also "kind of" want it to do bad. This is the result of greed. Fuck those money hungry whores.
  3. Seb
    November 19, 2017
    I 100% agree with you on RT and Cinemascores. But a B+ is not "dismal". It's mediocre or average. It's not bad. But it's not great either. A- or A, those are films with decent audience reactions.
  4. ShobiNaq
    November 19, 2017
    RT Audience Scores do not verify if the person voting has even seen it, and one person can create 10 accounts and vote 100% all 10 times (believe it or not, fanboys do this). In fact, RT had 10,000 votes for Audience Score before JL even officially released. Explain that? If you want an accurate fan score, you look at CinemaScore, which polls audiences as they walk out of the theatre. JL had a B+ Audience Score, which is horrendous for a superhero movie (by comparison Thor 3, Power Rangers, Spiderman homecoming, Wonder Woman, GOTG2, Logan etc, all had A- or above). As far as superhero movies go, JL officially has the lowest rating for a superhero movie this year in terms of CinemaScore
    1. nipple_pinchy
      November 19, 2017
      True. I realized that earlier but didn't delete my comment.
2. DudeofSteel1Million
  November 19, 2017
  Unless this thing somehow miraculously grows the legs of Wonder Woman, it's unlikely this performs any better than say The Amazing Spider-Man 2 which capped out at 700 million WW and 202 million domestic - and that's being generous.
  Even if by some miracle JL managed to hold on for a little while, in 3 weeks, it will get SWALLOWED WHOLE by Star Wars and will simply fade out of existence from there. Especially since Disney already greedily set up the mandate that whichever theater plays Star Wars has to play it on their biggest screen for at least four weeks. There goes any chance to see JL then except on tiny dollar screens.
  1. Knight-Errant
    November 19, 2017
    “Greedily”? If it flops, will it be “foolishly”? It’s busy.
    Regardless, I don’t wave the white flag until the end of the line. As a Pats fan, Super Bowl 51 is a great example why.
3. Knight-Errant
  November 19, 2017
  Burton? I’d say Schumacher more then Burton. Man, an amalgam of Keaton’s Batman & Bale’s Batman would kick ass.
  I should elaborate; they thought it as watchable verses BvS & SS, having an enjoyable time.
  1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
    November 19, 2017
    BvS is almost a masterpiece compared to this cartonish film
    1. Bartholomew Hunt
      November 19, 2017
      No, it's not. Despite all its fault, JL is leaps and bounds better than BvS. Then again, that's true to almost every film ever created.
      1. Saudefh Sauri Denis
        November 19, 2017
        thats your opinion... box office will tell the truth
      2. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        BO is hardly an accurate metric to gauge a movie's quality. Especially when JL is tanking BECAUSE of BvS. Weekend to Weekend drops tell a better story.
      3. ShobiNaq
        November 19, 2017
        this guy is in denial over BVS. Smh... That movie (paired with Suicide Squad) are the downfall of the DCEU. Hopefully they give the next JL/team movie to Patty and she saves the day
      4. Nahuel Benvenuto
        November 19, 2017
        only because a movie works better because it does not want to say anything, does not make a more flawed movie but interested in actually saying something worse
    2. Knight-Errant
      November 19, 2017
      Wow. BvS was so far from being s masterpiece, I don’t think they shared the same hemisphere.
  2. Rust
    November 19, 2017
    "Man, an amalgam of Keaton’s Batman & Bale’s Batman would kick ass."
    I'd absolutely glow if this happened. Pretty close to the perfect Batman for me. :)
  3. Knight-Errant
    November 19, 2017
    Looking back (because at age 10 I wasn’t really thinking about any of this) Burton essentially did the same thing Snyder did; presented characters that weren’t the norm. Up until 1989, I do recall the Adam West/Super Friends/Galactic Guardians Batman was the norm. Although the 1989 film is essentially the 30/40s Batman, the general audience didn’t really know that.
    I recall how well received that movie was. It was different and the general consensus was it was good. Snyder did the same, but in today’s world it just wasn’t well-received.
    1. Rust
      November 25, 2017
      I've been thinking about that too lately. You explained it perfectly.
      To quote Returns, "Things change."
      Sigh.
4. Saudefh Sauri Denis
  November 19, 2017
  a ok film is not enough... watchable is not enough.
  1. Knight-Errant
    November 19, 2017
    Should it have been stellar? I’m curious how, based on the scenes we saw in the trailers, it’d be stellar.
nipple_pinchy
November 19, 2017
Execs at WB are on suicide watch.
1. Phunny Guy
  November 19, 2017
  They better be or show some change by firing Tsujihara or have some Board members stepped down. Better yet, kick Whedon to the curb and his mini me the Elfman. I can see Whedon laughing it up by sticking it to the DC fan base for creating this mess of CBM. The WB/DC have completely lost the trust and confidence of all DC and comic book fans. I foresee, empty seats when Aquaman comes out. DC fans should make a bold statement in the WB’s pocket book by not paying to see any DC comic book movie until there is change at the top and the comic book movie division. Heads need to roll, Geoff Johns should be included.
  1. OmegaCorleone
    November 19, 2017
    I think they should send a message by not ordering reshoots for Aquaman. I think it's also for the best if they wait as long as possible with kicking off Aquaman's marketing. Summer 2018 would be a good time to start with a teaser trailer, preferably at comic-con. Of course only with CG shots which are done or nearly done.
    1. OmegaCorleone
      November 20, 2017
      Nolan doesn't have reshoots, and he only makes blockbusters since Prestige (which was also successful)
  2. Axxell
    November 19, 2017
    I do think Johns has some slack since JL started immediately after BvS, before he was put in control following the BvS blowback. But if he wants to save his job, he needs to show he can right the ship, fast.
    1. ShobiNaq
      November 19, 2017
      Any true DC fan knows that Johns is the Highfather of DC, whereas Zack Snyder is the Steppenwolf (not Darkseid, Darkseid is actually worth it, no Zack is the Steppenwolf of DC, a side villain nobody ever gave a shit about, that ruins every story he is in)
  3. ShobiNaq
    November 19, 2017
    First things first, fire Zack Snyder. And yawn, another Snyder Fanboy that is a fake DC fan. You know Geoff Johns has singlehandedly saved DC comics division from going bankrupt? (Of course you wouldn't know that, you're a Snyder fanboy that probably hasn't read more than a few comics in your entire life). Geoff Johns is the guy DC reaches out to, to plan their reboots/Rebirth events anytime things start going south in terms of sales. The guy has only written Good-Masterpiece stories. ALso, Johns came on after JL started production, Hack Snyder was already filming at that point.
    1. Phunny Guy
      November 19, 2017
      You need to stop giving head to Johns. By the way I am fan of Snyder but I’m not going to sacrifice DC heroes over Zac or Johns. If they both suck balls they should leave. Right now, both Zac and Johns should leave. Johns should stick to the comic books. He lacks the authority or penis size to make a dent into the decision making process for movies. Right now, Tsujihara and the WB executives have him cleaning their laundry and wiping their asses for the mess that is the “ Just Us” League. He wasn’t the savior, he is an enabler of the WB hack job and destruction of the DC movie universe. He had no dick in the boardroom. Until, he has some clout or power. He is only wiping ass and kissing their rectums for a job. He should be on the chopping block if not he should apologize to the fan base for enabling this to happen.
      1. ShobiNaq
        November 19, 2017
        All that stuff you said is speculation and cannot be proven. Fact is thay, this was hack Snyder's movie. Johns only came in once production and filming started. He could only edit the script, not write it. I'm sure movies from now on will do better, every writer, editor and director at DC has acknowledged that no1 knows these characters as well as Johns. Stop embarrassing yourself, your pimp Zack has failed lmao. You can finally pull Snyder's condom out of your ass.
2. OmegaCorleone
  November 19, 2017
  Some people better get fired. Whedon should be expelled from anything DC related. What an incredible hack.
  1. DudeofSteel1Million
    November 19, 2017
    I'm sure WB will want to keep Whedon around, but it's only a matter of time before it blows up in their faces even more. The guy has not said ONE positive thing about JL and at the very first chance, he likes tweets bashing the movie.
    Not to mention that he's one step away from being swallowed by the after shock of the Harvey Weinstein stuff thanks to that lengthy article his ex-wife wrote about him.
    1. OmegaCorleone
      November 19, 2017
      It already is blowing up in their faces. Whedon's input sounds atrocious. Mostly it's Tsujihara's fault of course. Demanding it to be 2hours is just plain stupid. It's a massive tragedy what happened to Snyder's family but no way it had to be butchered this much with the reshoots. And fucking Paramount basically said go fuck yourselves when it came to Cavill's beard. I mean, then just work with the shots you got. No way any CG chin is going to look good now let alone years from now.
      Tsujihara should resign and they should also stop with the reshoot mentality. I hope Snyder will be able to make his director's cut and yes, that means getting rid of the reshoots they had. Chances of that happening are incredibly incredibly slim but god I hope it happens.
    2. Axxell
      November 19, 2017
      Looks like he's trying the Pontius Pilate defense and separating as much as possible from this film. He may have been upset at not getting as much billing for the end product, but it may end up being a blessing in disguise for him.
      1. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        Funny thing is that Whedon quit Marvel so that he'd never have to work on another huge stressful project like The Avengers ever again.... Only to end up at DC, taking the reigns of a huge stressful project like The Avengers. lol
        No wonder he wasn't happy.
  2. OmegaCorleone
    November 19, 2017
    Whedon is not a good writer nor director. It also hurts him what his ex-wife said about him. WB should distance themselves from Whedon altogether. Also, if there's anyone who's "style" is the farthest away from Snyder it's Whedon ffs.
    1. Axxell
      November 19, 2017
      That's why it was a bad idea in the first place... A director should NEVER be batting cleanup for another.
    2. Bartholomew Hunt
      November 19, 2017
      Really? We're now saying Whedon isn't a good director nor a good writer? You've just lost any credibility in any argument ever.
    3. BugsMeany
      November 20, 2017
      I don’t like what Whedon did with JL but the man has Oscar and Emmy nominations for writing. He can write.
    4. Hunter Zolomon
      November 21, 2017
      Considering Whedon has two films what crossed a billion, got great reviews and was loved by audiences then yeah i would hardly say he's a bad writer or director. Buffy and Angel helped spawn so much in TV shows are both regarded as classics, Firefly and its Film despite flopping are regarded as classics and Cabin In the Woods what he wrote is also a classic in its genre. Fact is Whedon has had more hits then Snyder ever will so deal with it.
UltimateEdition
November 19, 2017
saw it last night and I plan on seeing it 2 more times... I was prepared for a train wreck with the way people have been talking and was pleasantly surprised. the pace is fast but it’s not by any means incoherent. jokes were not forced and the entire theater seemed to really enjoy it. if an extended edition is released it will undoubtedly be well received. Also saw it in 3D and it was amazing
1. nipple_pinchy
  November 19, 2017
  There will be an extended cut. VFX ARTISTS ARE STILL WORKING ON THE MOVIE! Can you frickin' believe it?
  1. UltimateEdition
    November 19, 2017
    this is a troll comment that just simply isn’t true. the vfx were NOT bad.
  2. Seb
    November 19, 2017
    Are they really? Happen to have a link?
    1. nipple_pinchy
      November 19, 2017
      VFX artists from WETA that worked on the movie went on social media and told all about everything that was cut from the movie and that they're still working on shots.
      https://i.imgur.com/mV8JwTZ...
      1. Seb
        November 19, 2017
        Thanks, I'll look into it.
      2. Seb
        November 19, 2017
        Meh... sounds like they might to a BIT of work, but not anything extensive, like what I had hoped.
      3. Axxell
        November 19, 2017
        Wow...guess Paramount doesn't have many friends left at WB...
  3. OmegaCorleone
    November 19, 2017
    Thank god they didn't reshot the entire thing in front of a green screen but jesus does it look bad.
  4. Axxell
    November 19, 2017
    That's incredible...
2. UltimateEdition
  November 19, 2017
  it’s not bias.
3. Dan
  November 19, 2017
  People here love hating on it. Its ridiculous
4. Seb
  November 19, 2017
  https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
  But you're right. How dare I make accurate predictions? Only a malicious TROLL would do that, right? ..... Oh wait -________________-
  1. UltimateEdition
    November 19, 2017
    you really can't take any shit can you? AND im willing to bet you STILL havent seen the movie. i most certainly read an article that had MULTIPLE predictions of what the weekend haul would be. Even if what i read was inaccurate does not mean i lied about actually reading that. the difference between us is that I am optimistic and you are looking for whatever excuse possible to hate on this movie and just happened to get it right. it's a GOOD fucking movie and a damn good time at the theater. It is people like you who spread so much hate and negativity about EVERYTHING that causes the rest of the sheeple to make up their mind about seeing the film WITHOUT even seeing it. so tell me have you seen the movie?
    1. Seb
      November 19, 2017
      "you really can't take any shit can you?"
      LOL. Says the guy who can't even so much as admit he got his facts COMPLETELY wrong. Yes, I fucking got you here.
      "i most certainly read an article that had MULTIPLE predictions of what the weekend haul would be."
      Why does that matter, when my numbers came from much more up-to-date sources????????
      This is you cherry-picking your "facts" to suit your narrative.
      "Even if what i read was inaccurate does not mean i lied about actually reading that."
      It is NOT about that. I don't give a fuck that you were wrong. Happens all the time. No big deal. I can be wrong, you can be wrong. Who gives a fuck?
      What bothers me is the absolute fucking CONTEMPT and the unconditional condescending disgust you have towards people who say (FACTUAL) things YOU don't like hearing. You simply cannot help yourself BUT assume my intentions are malicious or that I somehow enjoy my childhood being destroyed. THAT is what I take issue with. The fact that you were wrong, but didn't want to admit it, and instead chose to make it all about me being a supposed "hater". Because who else would dare cite these negative things, right? It doesn't matter that they were FACTS. What matters, is that they said something negative about the DCEU, and you, with your childishly pathetic echo-chamber line of thinking, just couldn't have that, could you?
      "the difference between us is that I am optimistic and you are looking for whatever excuse possible to hate on this movie and just happened to get it right."
      BULL fucking SHIT.
      I wanted this movie to be the BEST movie ever made. I wanted this movie to get a 100% rating on RT. I wanted this movie to have a 5351213532131 billion dollar opening day. I actually care about this property very deeply, despite your continuous slander and unashamed distortion of my position. But UNLIKE YOU, I am not blind to the facts. I didn't "happen" to get it right. I was up-to-date on the matter. YOU weren't. It's as simple as that. Do you think I take joy in knowing Justice League failed? Do you think that makes me happy? Do you think that BvS being critically panned "made my day"? No... That broke my heart. It really did. But again, UNLIKE YOU, my response isn't denial. My response is frustration. I actually care so much about this geeky trivial shit, that when they fuck it up, YES, I care about that. You may be fine with nothing but critically panned or divisive films, but I am NOT.
      "It is people like you who spread so much hate and negativity about EVERYTHING"
      No. Fuck you. First of all, can you give me ONE example of me """"spreading hate"""" you lying, dishonest piece of shit? I do NOT spread "hate". I've never done anything remotely similar to spreading genuine "hate". Why? Because I do NOT hate DC. Not. one. bit.
      And secondly, spreading FACTS (like JL's DISASTROUS opening weekend) is not "being negative". It's simply being HONEST about the facts. Whilst you sit there shoving your fingers in your ears and shouting LALALALALA hoping you could live in your fantasy world and ignore reality... I am actually worried about these things. Petty, first world problems. I KNOW. But I am genuinely worried. Not that you would understand that though. You openly accept mediocrity.
      "that causes the rest of the sheeple to make up their mind about seeing the film WITHOUT even seeing it."
      Fucking sad. This is just a new level of pathetic coming from you. Do you really fucking think, that "HAAAAAAAAAAAAAATTTTTTTEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRSSSSSSSSSSSSS" like me, have so much power, that my words influence the hearts and minds of others? You are giving me WAY too much credit. Seriously, you fanboys and your retarded conspiracy theories, it's laughable.
      "so tell me have you seen the movie?"
      No, because I haven't had the time. That said, this had NOTHING to do with my argument, or me being completely and 100% correct on the matter. This is just you trying to dismiss my objective claims on the grounds of feelings. I expect nothing less from such a sad, dishonest, lying unconditional and delusional blind fanboy, such as yourself.
      1. UltimateEdition
        November 20, 2017
        You are a sad, strange little man. You have my pity.
      2. Seb
        November 21, 2017
        No. Sarcasm doesn't disprove my point. Always funny how you morons are allowed to say "go fuck yourself", but if I return the favor "I'm sad". I know that you simply have no way of replying to my comment. Just admit you were wrong, dude. For fuck's sake, you're childish. And to think you're a grown man with kids. I feel sorry for them.
5. UltimateEdition
  November 19, 2017
  how do I have bias? i went into the theater with an open mind and came out happy. if you say something positive about the movie it's fucking bias? what the hell?
  1. UltimateEdition
    November 20, 2017
    Except I still expected to be at the very least satisfied with my experience. Was 33 bucks worth it for my wife and I to see justice League...? yup. No bias here
Xetrus
November 19, 2017
Congrats again. They´ve made the most iconic superheroes of all time, non atractive for people to watch their movies. Difficult task but they made it.
Thomas Anderson
November 19, 2017
Serious question to everyone, what do you think are the chances we get an ultimate edition of Justice League?
1. marcelb
  November 19, 2017
  Well since they (WB) are getting a huge amount of backlash for cutting JL that heavily, it might be more likely than most people believe. But it is WB... they will find another supposed reason why it underperformed instead of admitting their guilt. Let us just hope future DC movies will not suffer the same fate, because I wholeheartedly believe the complete version of JL is a great movie.
  1. DudeofSteel1Million
    November 19, 2017
    Suicide Squad got a crapton of backlash and we still never got to see the original "dark" cut of that film. I see no reason WB would do anything different for JL.
    The most we could expect is another Suicide Squad situation where we maybe get 10-15 extra minutes of footage in a cheaply made "extended cut" to sell off as a gimmick to gullible fans who might smack down a few extra bucks because they were tricked into believing it would be like a whole different movie.
    1. marcelb
      November 19, 2017
      Yeah you are right about that, the entire Suicide Squad situation was a real travesty... the release of the real JL version might just be wishful thinking, but one can hope.
      1. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        Oh, don't get me wrong. I totally agree with you. I even signed that change.org petition just for the hell of it. I'm just being realistic in accepting the fact that the things we want generally never happen.
      2. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        I know. It'll do no good. RT was never "shut down" because of those dumb petitions from fanboys and Ben Affleck wasn't removed because 97,000 salty crybabies wanted him gone.
        It was just for kicks basically.
      3. marcelb
        November 19, 2017
        It is just such a shame. But I also do not think they should reboot everything like many people want them to. They need to get their shit together and let the directors execute their respective visions WITHOUT butchering them during post-production. I still have high hopes for The Batman, Wonder Woman 2 und Aquaman, but I am nervous as hell that WB screws up again.
      4. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        If WB panics and hits the reset button ala The Amazing Spider-Man, they're just going to pay an even HEAVIER price than they're paying right now.
        Nobody really wants to see all these actors fired. They'd be suicidal if they lost Gal Gadot after all - What they want is a COURSE CORRECTION. And that's not that hard to do without completely alienating those who already liked the DCEU to begin with.
      5. marcelb
        November 19, 2017
        Jep I love all of the actors so far ( I also hope all of those Ben Affleck rumors are not true, but only time will tell). Gal Gadot/Wonder Woman is their most powerful asset right now, so yes, they will do anything to keep her. They just need to stop interfering with the post production... Wonder Woman was not meddled with and it is the most succesful of the DC films so far, so that should be enough of a wake-up call for WB. It is not too late yet, but they NEED to change these practices.
2. DudeofSteel1Million
  November 19, 2017
  0%. WB didn't budge for Suicide Squad. They're not going to budge for this one.
  The Ultimate Edition of BvS is a special case because the movie was 100% completed and only after the fact it was done, THEN Snyder was ordered to cut it down to be under 3 hours. All WB had to do for the UE blu ray was simply render it out and package it.
  1. Ace20xd6
    November 19, 2017
    They might do it if Zack Snyder wants a director's cut.
    1. DudeofSteel1Million
      November 19, 2017
      Problem is that I doubt Zack would even want to bother. Why should he? He'll just get hated on anyways no matter what he does and as much as I'd want to see it happen as a FAN of his work, if I were him, I'd probably be like, "yeah... no thanks... See ya guys later. I'm done."
      With the death of his daughter, he's got too much other things on his mind than stepping back into the director's chair for a dvd release of a movie that was practically yanked from his hands and turned into something he never would have approved of.
      And quite frankly, I'm sure that the execs at WB don't want him back either, so it's a mutual feeling.
    2. Axxell
      November 19, 2017
      If Zack gets anything after this, it'll be a charity...
3. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
  November 19, 2017
  I think promotions of it has already started, with the "leaks" we saw of them recently.
  1. Thomas Anderson
    November 19, 2017
    If the leaks are a form of promotion, then why show them with unfinished vfx? I don't exactly see how that could be selling it?
    I think whether or not we get an ultimate edition will depend on how significant Whedon's changes were to the story.
    1. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
      November 19, 2017
      Because its not done, and it never was. They're trying to see audience reaction via social media. "Leaks" are never random, this much I guarantee.
Phunny Guy
November 19, 2017
I was a defender of Tsujihara but the recent debacle that is the “Just Us” League has made me change my mind. He needs to be fired along with all the board executives. They don’t know WTF they are doing. No wonder there are constant leakage from the WB about turmoil and conflicts. Tsujihara is the wrong guy for the WB. He is a talentless wind bag that is living on borrowed time as the head of WB. His incompetence is giving Asian Americans a bad name for being leaders in corporate America. Step the Phuc down Kevin. You lack talent and vision to run a Billion dollar company.
1. Axxell
  November 19, 2017
  What's this "Just Us" League debacle?
iAbeLincoln
November 19, 2017
https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
Dan
November 19, 2017
If you ask 1000 people why they didn't see it less than 5 % will say because of rt and critics more than 95 % would say they lost the interest after bvs because they thought it was weak.
But i wouldnt worry to much people who saw it really enjoy it. So i gues mouth to mouth propaganda will save the movie
Jonny Hesbøl
November 19, 2017
https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
Dan
November 19, 2017
You are not really thinking. Its not the fault of this movue that noone saw it, its the fault of the previous ones that people skipped this. This has nothing to do with the quality of this movie. But with the general hate for bvs
1. hush
  November 19, 2017
  100% correct
2. Phunny Guy
  November 19, 2017
  You’re an idiot it’s the combination of both. The biggest problem, you have to admit is Whedon, WB executives, and Elfman. They are solely responsible for this Phuc in mess. BVS was yesterday. Today, JL failure falls on Whedon and Elfman. They should never touch another DC product again. Whedon is already branded a sexual assault perpetrator. Time for him to leave with Weinstein.
  1. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    Normal people have absolutely no idea about this stuff behind the scenes ...nothing nada niente.
    They just think "i fell asleep at bvs, i don't wanna fall asleep again"
    Stop calling people idiot for telling things you don't want to hear about
    1. Phunny Guy
      November 19, 2017
      Stop telling people to stop calling people idiots when they can’t logically deduce and read about what cause the problem. Whether it’s behind the scene or not, most people do read the new so there is nothing to be ignorant about. It’s like blaming Obama for Trump being an idiot or Blaming Britain for Trump’s idiocy too. You’re the one who doesn’t want to hear the real truth. So, what’s your point?
      1. Dan
        November 19, 2017
        Are we in kindergarten here ?
        I explain with simple words for you:
        You don't go to the same restaurant when you got sick 3 times after eating there. So now the food is good but you can't know because you dont go because you don't want to get sick again.
      2. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        You don't know what logic is. I bet you just started taking Philosophy 101 at college.
      3. Phunny Guy
        November 19, 2017
        It must the Obama and Trump thing than how about blaming Trump for Obamacare. It’s Trump’s fault that we still have Obamacare and it’s Trump’s fault that we have a Republican house and Senate that won’t vote to end Obamacare. How about that. Feeling better now?
      4. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        Now you're bringing politics into a movie discussion. You are a brilliant logician! Quickly, without googling, tell me what are "red herring" and "straw man"?
      5. Phunny Guy
        November 19, 2017
        It’s not politics. I didn’t say I was for one or the other. Anyways, feeling better, yet. You want a hug out to see who is more Spock like. Come hear.. Uhhh.
  2. Bartholomew Hunt
    November 19, 2017
    You're retarded. You really are.
3. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
  November 19, 2017
  True, lets see if word of mouth helps it because honestly I have not met a single person who has hated it yet. Its more like good to amazing.
  1. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    Yes i honestly think so everyone i know really enjoyed jl and plan on seeing it again. They were pleasently surprised because they were hesitant to go after bvs disapointed them. Everyone im the cinema had a good time in genral.
    1. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
      November 19, 2017
      You hit the nail in the coffin. The hesitation is due to BvS, rightfully so. People are like well lets check the reviews, then they see it and decided not to go. The minority who decided to go anyways, were pleasantly surprised on how good of a movie it was. Let's just see if word of mouth gets through.
4. Axxell
  November 19, 2017
  I'd agree that previous experience has an effect in the performance of subsequent films in the franchise. But I can't support you saying it has nothing to do with the quality of the movie.
Bartholomew Hunt
November 19, 2017
RIP DC.
Snyder has finally done it, demolish the brand completely. $96M despite WW's popularity and reduced runtime. Cavil, Affleck, Miller, and Fisher can start looking for jobs.
See you in 397 days when surfer dude Aquaman, aka "My man!" or "Yeah! " bombs at BO, lol.
1. Bartholomew Hunt
  November 19, 2017
  He decided on the overall story, resurrecting Supes after he unnecessarily killed him in BvS, he decided on Steppenwolf, he decided there would be a JL with characters no one knows or cares about, and those people did know, Bats and Supes, they hated. Whedon isn't a sorcerer, you know. He could only do so much.
  1. Bartholomew Hunt
    November 19, 2017
    Are you high?
  2. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    You realize that people who didnt see the movie dont know what happens in the movie... You cant argue they didn't see it because it was bad. Thats ridiculous.
    They didn't seenit because they didn't want to ..because the last movie with batman and superman was horrendous
    1. Tobescolombo
      November 19, 2017
      Well I know I didn't see the movie because I was tired of WB cutting scenes out so they could get more showtimes. This is the 3rd time they've done this and all three times it's ended in disaster. I'm gonna wait and see if there's a directors cut, if not I'm just gonna wait until Aquaman comes out.
  3. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    Think
  4. Bartholomew Hunt
    November 19, 2017
    People didn't go see the movie! Dude, do you even get that?! They hear "A Zack Snyder movie..." they lock the door and hide under the bed until the shitstorm that is the DCEU passes. BvS was THAT bad.
    And FYI, Whedon made the movie entertaining. The quips worked, the lighter tone worked, the character moments worked... It's the overall story that was shitty. And you are a fool if you think the audience didn't like the banter and less grim tone. Good luck convincing yourself that.
    1. Bartholomew Hunt
      November 19, 2017
      Clearly you know nothing about mainstream cinema. The ONLY ones who give a fuck about Superman's arc are FANBOYS like yourself. And BvS made HALF of its total domestic earnings in its FIRST weekend. That distaster was frontloaded as fuck suffering HUGE drops weekend to weekend. By contrast, WW made FOUR times its opening weekend. It had LEGS.
      1. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        You sure reply like one.
      2. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        Truce?
      3. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        Now THAT, we can agree on.
    2. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
      November 19, 2017
      they lock the door and hide under the bed until the shitstorm that is the DCEU passes>>> LOL!!!
    3. Kerk Lastnameless
      November 19, 2017
      No, that's exactly it. Get out of your house and talk to the actual people. "I'm only here because of Wonder Woman" is what you'll hear.
      1. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        Fandango poll showed that 89% were the most excited about Wonder Woman.
      2. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        It's not about just who is excited most for what, it's about who is excited about ANYTHING. We're talking people not giving a shit about Batman and Superman themselves.
  5. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
    November 19, 2017
    not to mention killing off clark, olsen, mercy, doomsday arc + batman turning murderer (which could have been its own storyline maybe in redhood) + messing up wonder woman's past
  6. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
    November 19, 2017
    nobody cares about Flash or Aquaman , hell not even superman let alone cyborg.
    1. Wagner Von Schmit
      November 20, 2017
      Ehh no many loved the flash in the film many didn't like aquaman or cyborg.
  7. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
    November 19, 2017
    not to mention killing off clark, olsen, mercy, doomsday arc + batman turning murderer (which could have been its own storyline maybe in redhood) + messing up wonder woman's past
2. Kouglof
  November 19, 2017
  It's unbelievable to always see you around here to shit on Zack Snyder or the DC universe. You are useless to the world.
3. Kouglof
  November 19, 2017
  You think I didn't see your comment about my mother ? You think you can freely insult someone's mother because you are on the internet ? You think you can insult my dead mother you despicable reject of society ? I hope you see all your family and specialy your children die in front of your eyes someday.
  1. Bartholomew Hunt
    November 19, 2017
    I'm sorry about my comment. I took it too far, and I deleted it. But it wasn't I who started getting personal.
4. Dom510
  November 19, 2017
  Aquaman is gonna be great. James Wan is excellent director.
The Clash
November 19, 2017
I was all in til this movie. It really hurt. It tried to be two different movies and failed for me. For me. I know some are still all in.
But I don’t really see it cleaning up from here. Shame, cos I loved the cast. But they might really need to step back and reassess, instead of try to fix what they got.
1. Dom510
  November 19, 2017
  Aquaman is gonna be great
IamTheOneWhoKnocks
November 19, 2017
What has become of the moviegoers in the United States where 85,098 people's opinion matter a lot less than 143, amazing. Glad is breaking records internationally, and the global box office numbers look promising, as people overseas really don't care about critics, which is refreshing. Anyways, lets hope it has legs until Star Wars, so we'll see. Oh yeah, MCU fans, Thor got beaten out by Wonder..... https://uploads.disquscdn.c... yeah let that sink in for a bit.
1. Thomas Anderson
  November 19, 2017
  "Thor got beaten out by Wonder"
  You are aware that Thor has been out for 3 weeks right?
  1. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
    November 19, 2017
    You are aware that took longer than 3 weeks for Wonder Woman to be toppled in the box office, similar to other great movies.....just saying. It wasn't even number 2 this past weekend, lol.
2. Danny Rodriguez
  November 19, 2017
  Yea it is sorta disappointing that so much emphasis is put on these critics reviews. Audience score/reactions should be put front and center. Actually thats a great buisness model. I'm going to go create that real quick.
  1. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
    November 19, 2017
    Thanks! These are facts, being objective about the situation. Its truly shocking, I did not think people were swayed so much by critics, but the reality is they are, which has kept them from going to see it. Those that have seen it come out pleasantly surprised, and see the critics were completely wrong about their reviews. Hope word of mouth spreads, which I honestly believe it will, it will be interesting to see what happens.
  2. Smart Ass
    November 19, 2017
    Audience scores on IMDb and RT make zero sense it's just an army of fan boys with multiple accounts giving a 10/10. I've been here long enough to see this happening again and again.
    1. Smart Ass
      November 19, 2017
      Tell Hoorish not to cite the RT score for JL again bby.
3. IamTheOneWhoKnocks
  November 19, 2017
  Interesting, now I know why DCEU gets attacked so much from MCU.
  Box Office take of the first 4 MCU & DCEU films:
  MCU Domestic=810,904,143
  DCEU Domestic=1,033,969,120
  MCU Dom. Adjusted for inflation= 885,414,301
  DCEU Dom. Adjusted for Inflation=1,404,578,800
  MCU Worldwide=1,668,498,165
  DCEU Worldwide=3,108,769,174
  Ouch!!.....so yeah, these are the real objective numbers that executives look at, not subjective narratives and spins. Fact is DCEU is wayyyy ahead of the MCU right now. This is without good critical reviews, so expect some minor changes moving forward, but they will be minor. My guess is Zack Snyder won't work again in a primary capacity, as critics have it in for him unfortunately.
  1. BugsMeany
    November 19, 2017
    Ah, the good old “first 4” argument. Sure, compare B-list Marvel characters in solo movies to DC’s biggest heroes and villains. 👍 It would be embarrassing if DC _didn’t_ win that matchup.
4. Schuyler Finley
  November 19, 2017
  I get that people are genuinely upset at WB has treated the franchise, but I swear this anger makes some of these guys look like spoiled children.
Phunny Guy
November 19, 2017
After this Sh!tfest, the WB show some change by firing Tsujihara or have some Board members stepped down. Better yet, kick Whedon to the curb and his mini me the Elfman. I can see Whedon laughing it up by sticking it to the DC fan base for creating this mess of CBM. The WB/DC have completely lost the trust and confidence of all DC and comic book fans. I foresee, empty seats when Aquaman comes out. DC fans should make a bold statement in the WB’s pocket book by not paying to see any DC comic book movie until there is change at the top and the comic book movie division. Heads need to roll, Geoff Johns should be included.
HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
November 19, 2017
https://uploads.disquscdn.c...
1. Tommy Pearson
  November 19, 2017
  lol
2. FUN
  November 19, 2017
  Creepy.. like RDJ's extra long eyelashes.
3. ThisBitterEarth
  November 19, 2017
  http://www.clevver.com/wp-c...
  1. FUN
    November 20, 2017
    You fuckin creep.
Shikhar
November 19, 2017
But it's good that we can still stick to comics and animated shows.
1. Shikhar
  November 19, 2017
  Thanks to WB
2. FUN
  November 19, 2017
  SJW marvel comics sucks! DC rebirth anytime!
Thanasis
November 19, 2017
That's so fucking shitty.
Knight Radiant
November 19, 2017
I remember years ago on this very site, I had people saying that DOJ would beat Force Awaken's box office numbers. Cut to now and The Justice League just got beat by a crappy Thor film.
1. Knight Radiant
  November 19, 2017
  Where you at Marvel Troll and @VizGauss lol!
  1. Kerk Lastnameless
    November 19, 2017
    Under some bridge most likely.
    1. Knight Radiant
      November 19, 2017
      Over some bridge is probably even more likely lol.
Kalel.sonofel
November 19, 2017
Stop calling it Zack Snyder's.
We all know that's not true.
Zack's last movie for the DCEU was BvS.
Point blank aaaand period
Origami Rose
November 19, 2017
People are blaming Kevin but he has the biggest movies of the year Dunkirk WOnder WOman and It. lol
1. Phunny Guy
  November 19, 2017
  Please read the tea leaves and stop being a Kevin Tsujihara excuser. This guy is a hapless leader and an incompetent fool. He’s giving Asian Americans a bad name for being incompetent leaders because of his decision for WB and “Just Us” League. He didn’t do any of those movies, you can thank Nolan and Jenkins for those successes, not Tsujihara. Get a clue. It’s time to step down Kevin or start rolling some heads on your board or the movie division. You can start with Whedon, the pervert. I foresee a sexual assault case emerging for him.
  1. Washington
    November 19, 2017
    In 2016, Johns was made the co-runner of the DC Extended Universe, and co-chairman of DC Films in order to create a unified vision and overarching story for the franchise.
    Blame this idiot too.
    1. Phunny Guy
      November 19, 2017
      I do. He should go too.
EpicNoobsFTW
November 19, 2017
Warner Bros need to stop fucking around, and hopefully this will be a major lesson for them.
1. Knight Radiant
  November 19, 2017
  How many bad films does it take to learn a lesson?
  1. EpicNoobsFTW
    November 19, 2017
    You're damn right but this should be the final straw. I hope they feel this one.
    1. Washington
      November 19, 2017
      They should just cancel the whole universe. AS much as I love every single actor.
      1. Dom510
        November 19, 2017
        while this is not good news. that's a little ridiculous. the future of the DCEU is changing. Snyder is out and as much i love his movies the guy was a pushover who let WB fuck with his movies. the future movies will not be the same, Wan, Reeves, Sandberg and Jenkins are not pushovers. they're not going to let their movies get fucked with. Wan and Reeves told WB they would walk if they wouldn't let them make "their" movie. so while i have loved the DCEU so far, let's look to the future.
  2. J.K.2019
    November 19, 2017
    this should be last.others made money but it will get royally screwed at box office.
Frank Lucas
November 19, 2017
Die, Zack Snyder
Die, your motherfucker
1. Frank Lucas
  November 19, 2017
  kkkkkkkkkk
2. Knight-Errant
  November 19, 2017
  Actually, the rewrites & alterations occurred when he was still onboard. How much changed after that, we don’t know.
  1. lowdevil
    November 19, 2017
    There was (lots) of change. Just read a piece from someone who worked closely on the film.
    1. Kerk Lastnameless
      November 19, 2017
      So did I. And what it shows is that the changes were actually for good. The original scenes were all unnecessary and unimpressive.
      1. lowdevil
        November 19, 2017
        I will never come to the defense of someone who I see as being so disappointing at his job (Whedon). I hate and always have hated his work. It's almost like I watched an unfinished version of 2 films.
      2. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        Uhu, so the problem here is just that you hate Whedon. As I thought.
        Well thing is, you have absolutely no reason to think that Snyder's original cut was any better.
      3. lowdevil
        November 19, 2017
        I have no reason to believe, with over 30% cut and with a runtime much less than what was envisioned, that Snyder's cut would not have been better. I know it would have been better.
      4. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        Oh, now you KNOW it was better? Well go ahead and tell me how you know that.
      5. lowdevil
        November 19, 2017
        Because I just watched an unfinished film with Whedon jokes in it and a score that did not fit the movie and was stitched together in 6 months.
      6. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        That shows that this version is not good, it says nothing about the previous being good. So? I'm waiting.
      7. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        Where did my comment go? Anyway, I get it -- you know that Snyder's version was better because you really like his dick up your rectum.
      8. lowdevil
        November 19, 2017
        There is really no point in arguing with someone who thinks an unfinished film pieced together by 2 directors separately, would be better than a finished film by its creator.
        That basically means you're an idiot.
      9. Kerk Lastnameless
        November 19, 2017
        An idiot is the one that makes a claim with no evidence. That's you.
      10. Dan
        November 19, 2017
        They think in his original cut was darkseid braniac injustice league beard black suit superman avengers the death star ... Its insane they imagine the movie made by snyder to be best thing ever.. And there is no way to prove them wrong. I could cry how messed up this situation is
      11. Dan
        November 19, 2017
        Joss did everything possible.to save the mess
    2. Knight-Errant
      November 19, 2017
      Sure, but Snyder was at least part of some of the rewrites. There was a post on this site when Snyder took leave where we found out Whedon had been working with him during post. I’m not saying there weren’t more rewrites after Snyder left, but we don’t know how much Zack was apart of that made it into the final product.
      It’s easy for people here to blame Whedon because his fingerprints are in the product. He was either going to get the blame or get the praises.
  2. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    True
  3. FUN
    November 19, 2017
    Pretty smooth how you subtly blame Snyder all the time. Well at least you're one of the saner haters.
    1. Knight-Errant
      November 19, 2017
      Actually, I don’t blame him. I blame the studio for not having a game plan they stick with. A bump in the road & they try to change course.
      I’m just not ruling out Snyder being (potentially begrudgingly) about of some of the rewrites & changes.
      1. FUN
        November 19, 2017
        Fair enough, what's your take on Whedon's bats grinning like a fool at supes' undynamic entry in the final battle?
      2. Knight-Errant
        November 19, 2017
        I haven’t seen any leaked footage of that scene come across me, but as a general notion, I’m not a fan of Bats grinning.
      3. FUN
        November 20, 2017
        Well if you do happen yo come across it, don't forget to thank Whedon.
      4. Knight-Errant
        November 20, 2017
        Has that been a confirmed moment rewritten after Snyder left the postproduction & rewrites with Whedon?
3. Kerk Lastnameless
  November 19, 2017
  Stephan Wolf was not changed. His bland design and bland personality were all Snyder's.
  1. ThisBitterEarth
    November 19, 2017
    How do you infer that Steppenwolf hasn't changed if a huge amount of footage has been removed and/or changed?
    1. Kerk Lastnameless
      November 19, 2017
      There are several reasons to think that -- first, that list of changes floating around, second, we saw him in the early trailers, so we know that at least his design remained the same, third, this movie has always been hero-oriented, so all focus of reshoots would have been on them, except the final scene of how he was taken out, but even that is more about the heroes than himself, and finally, even the actor who played him himself when interviewed about a year ago could not even name him and say anything meaningful about his role.
      That tells you all you need to conclude that he was not changed in any significant way. No way around it -- the weakest point of the movie is all Snyder. And that's not surprising in the slightest.
HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
November 19, 2017
“[Superman] is the freaking […] biggest superhero on the planet. He’s the father of every superhero. [Deborah and I] were just talking about this – I’m like, really? Thor? Thor has a movie? [Laughter.] Really? I mean, come on. And there’s no Superman movie? This is, like, the world’s out of balance. It’s like, we’ve lost our minds here, people, come on.”
Fantastic Four, X-Men, Superman, Spider-Man. The Marvel universe has gone nuts; we’re going to have a fricking Captain America movie if we’re not careful. Thor, too! We’re on our second Hulk movie. And Iron Man — $300 million domestic box office on a second tier superhero!
I feel like Batman and Superman are transcendent of superhero movies in a way, because they’re Batman and Superman. They’re not just, like, the flavour of the week Ant-Man – not to be mean, but whatever it is. What is the next Blank-Man?
-Zack Snyder
well guess what ?? karma bitch!!
1. Phunny Guy
  November 19, 2017
  You’re right. It’s Whedon’s fault because he is responsible for the final product. It takes another Marvel nut to destroy the DC universe. Karma is coming for Whedon and his sexual harassment case.
2. Wheez Von Klaw
  November 19, 2017
  Yet Snyder used Kirby's New Gods while dissing his other creations. Snyder has always been a complete idiot.
lowdevil
November 19, 2017
Well well, looks like Whedon was responsible for a little more than 20% of change. How surprising after watching that unfinished incoherent mess.
If there are no changes after this then that means WB and DC just don't give a shit about us. If I don't hear something substantial in the next few weeks then I am done with everything DC forever and selling my comic book collection. I'm serious. At this point they are making fun of us and I'm pissed off. Why didn't they fucking delay the film till May and give us a real film instead of garbage??!!
1. Dan
  November 19, 2017
  Thats a childish behaviour
  1. lowdevil
    November 19, 2017
    Actually it's not. Being taken advantage of by large corporations that couldn't give a shit is childish. And I will not have my earned money spent on such corporation.
    1. Dan
      November 19, 2017
      Don't throw away your fandom just because some movies flopped. It won't change how much you enjoyednyour comics and stuff
2. Julian Christopher
  November 20, 2017
  BvS was the same so that is whedon fault also snyder cultist?
Bartholomew Hunt
November 19, 2017
Let me make this clear since stupid people believe JL flopped because of its poor quality:
JL is NOT a bad movie. It's actually entertaining even! JL is tanking because of MoS and BvS! Twice bitten, three times shy! Snyder's incompetence has inevitably caught up with him. People don't bother going to see JL because of the traumatic experience of watching Isenberg giggle maniacally in one of the most hated movies in recent memory.
1. Kerk Lastnameless
  November 19, 2017
  Yes, but the quality won't help it either. Looks ugly as a mothafuka.
  1. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    The movie is fine
    1. Kerk Lastnameless
      November 19, 2017
      The third act takes you right out of it. It's jarringly ugly.
      1. Dan
        November 19, 2017
        Nah
2. HeyNotHeMan!!!!!!!!!!
  November 19, 2017
  you don't have the intellectual capabilities to understand the hidden meaning and cinematic visual language of BvS. Eisenberg's giggle is a subtle hint to the audience about the travesty that DCEU has become. It has meta contexts, with different interpretations. A modern masterpiece it is
  1. Dan
    November 19, 2017
    Haha i highly enjoy your comments
  2. Bartholomew Hunt
    November 19, 2017
    Can I favorite you? :)
3. Guest
  November 19, 2017
  It flopped because of the bad news surrounding the movie. The director switch, the under 2 hour run-time mandate. They think those things don't matter, but in this day and age, where everyone has a smartphone, that news gets to everyone. Maybe pre-internet the general audience would have flocked to this movie, but now not so much.
4. DudeofSteel1Million
  November 19, 2017
  JL may not be a bad movie. I liked it quite a bit actually.
  But a "decent/serviceable" JL film is completely unacceptable at this point. Even if it weren't for the negative reception of the prior DCEU films, JL would still be unacceptable in a world where The Avengers wasn't just a competent movie, but a really good one.
  You can't blame all the box office woes on previous DCEU entries. Yeah, they're definitely a big problem, but the actual JL movie is ALSO to blame because Wonder Woman proved that if you have great word of mouth from overwhelming positive critical reception, it can overcome even souring past movies.
  1. Bartholomew Hunt
    November 19, 2017
    "But a "decent/serviceable" JL film is completely unacceptable at this point."
    Completely agree, but the course correction was too little too late. This film was doomed from the get go as Warners greenlighted JL even before the backlash from BvS . It was too late for poor old JL then. What they should've done was to pull the plug on JL, fire Snyder, and start building this universe properly.
    Wonder woman, Batman, Aquaman, The Flash, Green Lantern, all should've gotten standalones. They should've done MoS 2 and have Supergirl there. And all those films should've distanced themselves as much as possible from the "doom and gloom" of BvS. It's okay to retain the darker theme as long as you introduce some levity and hope and heroism. If they had followed this blueprint, and had made good, quality films, a two-part JL movie could've been an event just like the Avengers. And all the following standalones would've benefited from the shared universe the way the MCU's ones do.
    1. DudeofSteel1Million
      November 19, 2017
      I agree. As much as I love BvS, it clearly didn't sit right with audiences and Snyder should have been let go. But WB, being the incompetent hacks they are, still kept going and made course corrections during the middle of production... And all after a tragedy forced Snyder to bow out.
      But BY THEN, it's ridiculous to use that as an opportunity to pretty much retool half the movie when you only got months left to release it, forcing the VSFX companies to deliver half-assed CG like Cavill's mustache that has no place in a now 300 million + costing movie. All you end up doing is alienating both fanbases of Snyder lovers and haters and pleasing nobody.
      1. Bartholomew Hunt
        November 19, 2017
        Yeah. I still don't understand why they didn't just postpone the release of the movie in favor of streamlining the story better. The third act needed much grander action and the lack of press coverage or any acknowledgment by citizens that an enormous battle is taking place had "de-epiced" the film. Moreover, if they had pushed it to March or something, they wouldn't have needed to CGI Cavil's moustache out as he wouldn't have had one.
      2. MisterDC
        November 19, 2017
        @eyalengelstein:disqus My thoughts exactly! That's what I was thinking about the 3rd act, no army, no press coverage no nothing, there's absolutely no sense of invasion scale... and yeah I think that WB is run by incompetent people... the saddest thing is they don't visit places like this website, so they'll probably not analyzed the failure of JL as us...
      3. DudeofSteel1Million
        November 19, 2017
        EXACTLY. There was no impact whatsoever for Superman's return.
        I mean, if people worshipped the guy as a god beforehand and they saw him resurrected, can you imagine what they'd think of him now?
        And the battle having a grand total of four people needing to be saved just made it feel TINY and like it had no grandstanding consequences.
        The Battle of New York in the Avengers had thousands of people fleeing for their lives. And people can say what they will about the destruction in MOS, but that end battle felt BIG and epic. It's kinda sad if you think about the notion that Man of Steel is actually the most "epic" of all the DCEU films in terms of scale and scope. As it stands, they've gotten smaller and smaller as each movie went by even though the cast of heroes has grown exponentially.
5. FUN
  November 20, 2017
  WW came out after MoS and BvS, yet it was unaffected, and was successful. Your argument is invalid. JL sucked btw. Batman was turned into a pussy so your kind can have your petty laughs at the cinema.

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